Arthur

[underoath]

I think he would have really helped had we had the Arthur for this tie that we had about 2 months ago (those Classicos). I think that last hamstring issue affected the outcome of this season pretty big. Not blaming him, but him and Dembele's fitness issues this spring were terribly unfortunate.

Barca needs to look for a great fitness coach and dietary for those two.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Barca needs to look for a great fitness coach and dietary for those two.

Actually the whole team. In contrast did you see how hard Mane, Gini, TAA, Henderson & Fabinho played all match with or without the ball. No Barca player had the combination of will and conditioning to match that. Closest was Vidal.

 

[DonAndres]

We need to stop discussing this "fight fire with fire" shit about simply outrunning the opposition. We will never be a high octane high press team until years after Messi retires (because it's not just Messi who lacks in this respect). We had Vidal and supposedly Rakitic to just run around and try to win physical duels, but that means fuck all when they lack the ability to drop back, pick the ball up, and carry it forward against the other team's pressure.

When Arthur came on, we pinned them in their half with really good buildup and when we lost the ball they only had 1-2 players hustling to run and we were able to recover it easily.

High quality, suffocating possession makes it EASIER to win duels and harder for them to ever build momentum to overwhelm us with pressure. That equalizes the lack of "fitness" or "running" we have.

Pinning a team in their own half makes it so that we can quickly recover the ball time and time again after dispossessions. That's partly why we could just never bring the ball up in the first place against them, we were pinned back and had no one to beat the press. Players who can comfortably carry the ball and negate their pressure is how we keep teams from ever overwhelming us like this. It also exhausts them way more.

You beat pressure with PRESS RESISTANCE and ball progression. Having high pressure of our own is a separate matter, and while it's important it was not the primary thing we needed to counter what they threw at us today. We could have beaten Liverpool despite not having as much energy/running/pressure as them as long as we were the ball dominant team who imposed our will on the game. THAT is what we missed most.

 

[Arizona Scott]

It is an exaggeration to say we pinned them back once Arthur came back. They were pretty relaxed and largely in command at that point. They still had the better chances to add the next goal--by far.

You still have to be able to disrupt the opponent with the ball--and the difference was stark in effort or conditioning. It is not like Gini, Henderson, Fabinho and most others on the pitch (except Mane, TAA, & VVD) were pace merchants. But they were much more organized and were far more disruptive. We don't have to replicate Klopp or Pep ball, but we do need more athleticism than was on the pitch, a higher workrate and more cohesion.

 

[frostdude1]

This guy needs to be a full time starter next year. Hopefully the next manager won’t be a moron

 

[DonAndres]

It is an exaggeration to say we pinned them back once Arthur came back. They were pretty relaxed and largely in command at that point. They still had the better chances to add the next goal--by far.

You still have to be able to disrupt the opponent with the ball--and the difference was stark in effort or conditioning. It is not like Gini, Henderson, Fabinho and most others on the pitch (except Mane, TAA, & VVD) were pace merchants. But they were much more organized and were far more disruptive. We don't have to replicate Klopp or Pep ball, but we do need more athleticism than was on the pitch, a higher workrate and more cohesion.

The point is you have to notice the pattern of how momentum is dependent on who's half the game is being played in, and which team is on the back foot. Liverpool swarmed the hell out of us so that the game was being played in our half a vast majority of the time, and when we did have the ball we didn't have players to drop back and carry it forward beating their press. Literally only Busquets did this and he gassed out and became way less effective in the 2nd half.

We won more tackles and interceptions than them, but because we didn't have a system to beat their press we couldn't counteract it and play the game we wanted to. Running more and winning more duels really wouldn't have saved us.

When Arthur came on we were incredibly demoralized and disorganized, but his influence made it so that we could get forward and shift it to putting them on the back foot. When we did that their "numeric" superiority was negated and whenever they won the ball we'd have an easier time of recovering it and continuing our momentum.

I'm not downplaying the importance of having athleticism/running/pressure, but that is not the KEY factor that we lacked which led to us being overwhelmed. It is that we couldn't beat their press because neither Rakitic nor Vidal made ANY effort to drop back, pick the ball up, turn and negate their pressure. That is mostly because they are nowhere near comfortable enough on the ball to do so. We couldn't build out of the back, and we couldn't transition the game to where we wanted it to be.

If we had done that, it would make life SO much easier for our midfielders and defenders.

-It'd be easier to win duels because we'd be on the front foot
-They wouldn't be able to simply overwhelm us by charging at us with greater numbers because their players would be farther back
-They'd get more tired/exhausted while we would save much more energy
-Our structure/organization would play more to our advantage and they would lose their offensive shape

Arthur and FDJ are no defensive slouches anyhow and FDJ is proving to be elite in this regard and shows incredible stamina.

You counteract pressure by beating the press, and that allows you to move the game into their territory. Once you're there, your own pressure is what allows you to keep it there and keep them playing reactively. It's not a matter of pressure vs pressure and who wins more duels. It's pressure vs press resistance and then vice versa on the other end. That's why I'm saying you guys need to reframe how you think about it, and that's why Arthur is so invaluable and his supposed workrate/stamina issues aren't as big as they're made out to be.

 

[Arizona Scott]

DonAndres I can't say I disagree with your points there. I am very optimistic about Arthur and De Jong being the core of the midfield. Arthur's conditioning and picking of fatigue related injuries I think could be more of an issue that you suggest. But this is his 1st year in European football--overall he has adapted fantastic, but it is a grind season long and within these kinds of matches, particularly with the work rate (w w/o the ball) he does and what we want him to do. I am fine if he is only great for 75 minutes, particularly if he have De Jong putting in a full shift, and just plan for a sub midfielder at that point. Key thing is letting him do his thing and substituting to reduce fatigue related injuries, we have a squad for reason.

One other issue, hopefully Dembele and Semedo (or someone like Griezmann or Jovic) can also open things up with additional pace. There were times we just couldn't break well because they could get numbers back faster than we could get forward to help Messi--makes us lower risk to apply pressure--no matter whether Arthur is in midfield or not. As an example Liverpool for instance had to play with so much more measure against City this year than they did with us, even though City's back line and Fernandino are not any more press resistant that our comparables.

 

[Espacio]

he is really good player. first touch, keeping ball, passes he is good in all this abilities
but Badverde prefer Rakitic and Vidal

 

[Shayan_barca]

I trully believe he could have made a difference if he started, or atleast came on at half time. He is the only midfielder in our team (busi to a certain point) that can handle being pressed, on the second goal rakitic was being pressed gave a shitty pass to alba, who fuked it up and lead to a goal, no way would have arthur done that, he hold the ball turns and find a safe pass, which is all we needed yesterday, it seems so obvious to me, specially after the first game where we saw how liverpool is pressing us. being a "side pass merchant" would have helped us a lot, if those side passes were clean safe passes which arthur is very good at.

 

[Potroh]

For quite some time the good folks here have been saying here that Arthur has stamina problems, that's why - when he is a starter - he needs to be substituted around the 60th minute.
Why is this "belief" so common?
Well, because Valverde does that change each and every time.

Now the question arose as the opposite, would he have made a meaningful difference if he was a starter at Anfield?
Frankly I don't think so. The big fiasco was not due to the lineup or the absence of a single player.

But there's the factor that one needs to - at least - notice, namely when Valverde makes some changes, he makes the very same changes over and over again, regardless and unrelated to the actual game-situations.
Valverde is a quite badly programmed robot in this regard, without any creativity.
Everyone knows he will bring in Dembele if Coutinho plays, and vice verse, or will sacrifice his winger if he wants to sit on a result and goes back to 4-4-2, then Semedo comes and Roberto comes to the midfield.
He did it the first leg and tried to do it again at Anfield.
The most stupid thing I've ever seen on a football field...
When the other team leads 3:0 and only needs one goal, but we only need one to seal everything, changing back to a more defense-oriented setup is simply crazy.

I'm not sure Arthur has stamina related problems, but I'm sure that Valverde made us to think so, simply because of the robotic changes.
Arthur became a sort of starter when played well against Tottenham in their stadium, a supposedly similar situation, and was hailed, but I don't really think - had he started - it would have made much difference.

 

[Barcilliant]

I'm still not convinced by Arthur. He still has stamina issues which is a worry and he does too many safe passes.
Even if he started the result would have been the same. He would have been paired with the great snail duo of Busquets and Rakitic.

 

[underoath]

I'm still not convinced by Arthur. He still has stamina issues which is a worry and he does too many safe passes.
Even if he started the result would have been the same. He would have been paired with the great snail duo of Busquets and Rakitic.

Well most of the Goals not because midfield been overrun. Majority are because of the mental lapses, but a sub in the 2nd half i think will help a little or him starting instead of Vidal

 

[tacticvarium]

The only reason why Arthur is fans' favourite is because he has the profile that fits in well with Barça system. But I don't think his ceiling is high enough to be a long-term starter assuming that Barça remains to be a contender for the CL with or without Messi. When we manage to have more competitive midfield squad, his input won't be that impressive unless he significantly improves his game.

 

[Rory]

In my opinion, Arthur starting totally changes this game. He is massively press resistant, Liverpool won that game 4-0 because our midfield could not handle the press and could not move the ball forwards. If you have arthur on the ball, frequently absorbing the press, eventually the opposition realise pressing him has no purpose or they just get too tired chasing a lost cause and so drop back slightly, if their midfield drops back so too do their defenders allowing our midfield and forwards to push up totally changing the dynamic of the game being played solely in our half. Also semedo should have started at RB that is something anyone would know.

 

[BusiTheKing]

The point of playing Arthur instead of Rakitic was not to have a better chance of scoring a goal. With Arthur, we make fewer mistakes. We resist their pressure better and keep possession. We have a much better opportunity of playing out from the back instead of kicking it long towards duels that we would inevitably lose. We move the ball around faster and make the game less about physical battles. We avoid making the game into the Premier League style waving back and forth that Liverpool thrive best in.