Arthur

[jamrock]

You may not like or respect 80% of the things bbz says, but by God you gotta respect him for never adopting his views like any intelligent human being would give all the facts that now confront him and have for years.

Oh a team full of "thugs" haven't won the CL in years.

Nah let's turn real Madrids midfield that was built as the closest thing they could find to barca's midfield as a thugs.

If the facts don't fit my narrative, then by the football gods I will change the damn facts.

Gotta respect it bro.

 

[mc_lovin]

We played our best football this season with Arthur though. He hopefully has his breakout season next year, because he actually looks talented. Regarding BBZ Gremio argument (only backpasses etc.): he was still by far their best midfielder in a title winning team. Again, I refuse to believe that someone like Arthur cant play better forward passes (he has already shown plenty of glimpses). You cant be that good in only one - technical - aspect of the game (press resistance). And his touches in defense/midfield actually get the ball forward (but hey, this wont show in stats - so means nothing).

Anyway, I dont think there are too many alternatives to him. Sometimes you have to give talent a shot (hes the 2nd best talent in his age group!). Unless you still think 2 of Vidal, Rakitic, Busquets are gonna cut it.


(I still have no idea how Valverde could think that Vidal-Rakitic-Busquets was the right setup after the first Liverpool tie. Messis geatness got him delusional.)

 

[BBZ8800]

You may not like or respect 80% of the things bbz says, but by God you gotta respect him for never adopting his views like any intelligent human being would give all the facts that now confront him and have for years.

Oh a team full of "thugs" haven't won the CL in years.

Lol.
Again, when has light technical midfield won a CL the last time?
Oh, I see your next line:

Nah let's turn real Madrids midfield that was built as the closest thing they could find to barca's midfield as a thugs.

Where do we have a player like Casemiro to break down the opponents counters and attacks with allowed and not allowed fouls?
We have Busi.
The lightest pivot in a history of sport.
I know, you'll reply now: but we won with Busi when we had Xavi and Iniesta.
Well, EXACTLY. We won with Busi ONLY when we had Xavi and Iniesta around him.
We don't have those two anymore, and Busi is shit without those two.
And we'll never again have anyone nowhere near prime Xavi, Iniesta (and Messi).
So, a question remains: what is the point of Busi without those two players?
And shouldn't we move to a more classical physical/defensive pivots since we don't have Xavi and Iniesta?

So, a fact No1: Real had Casemiro, we had Busi to break down the attacks and counters
Real had Modric who can actually run fast and run a lot.
We had a team of three turtles in Iniesta, Busi and Raki and now we had added a 4th one to our family, named Arthur.
I know, you'll reply with a good old: BUT BUT BUT Xavi and Iniesta were slow.
Well, if you have passing skills like Xavi and Iniesta, you can survive with being slow. Especially if you have prime Messi in your team to score 2-3 goals against anyone.
When you don't have prime Messi anymore and when you don't have prime Xavi and Iniesta, but old granny turtle Raki with average passes and a young turtle overweight low stamina Arthur who is learning how to play forward passes, then your pace IS A PROBLEM.
So:
1. Casemiro vs Busi
2. Modric running vs our turtles
3. plus, RM plays possession, direct, crosses and set pieces.
We can play only possession. Not because of EV. We played that way under Lucho and Tata, because our players can play in only one way.
4. add that RM had leaders in Ramos and CR7, and we have a team of sulking, complacent choirboys.

So, I would say that it is quite simplified to say that RM won because they had Barca's technical midfield.
In fact, if we will buy a pivot like Casemiro, and if we will have at least one faster CM (De Jong), and if we will be able to play counters, crosses and score some headers, set pieces and score some headers=I have no problem with us playing that way.
In fact, I am actually ASKING for majority of these things.
But our team is filled with old granny turtles with low motivation.
And young guys are either overrated, or are again slow as turtles without pace (Cou, Arthur, Malcom, Alena, Puig), stamina, height.

So, you are laughing at me for wanting more pyhsique, thugs, motivation, leaders.
Yet, your idea of technical football hasn't produced any CLs or big titles for Spain, Barca and Pep since 2012.
How come?
I know=because it worked ONLY when Mr. TikiTaka himself (Xavi) was playing. And when he was paired with a cousin TikiTaka named Iniesta, and paired with GOAT Messi to save their asses in moments when TikiTaka failed to break the opponents.
Today when you have none of those 3 factors (and when the opponents have evolved and learned how to neutralize better our play), it is not a huge surprise that similar teams can't do anything in continental competitions.

If the facts don't fit my narrative, then by the football gods I will change the damn facts.

A simple question: do you think that Pep's football from 2008-2011 can work today without Xavi, Iniesta, Messi in terms of CL titles?
If it can, why isn't it working?

So, why are you not changing your narrative, mate?

 

[Raketa10]

This was Arthur first year and he was very good in first part of the season but than after his last injury he was useless. We need to give him one more year before we can make some conclusions. Even Modric played poorly during his first year with Real. I agree that he has to improve significantly especially his fitness level but it's really absurd to bash him after his first season in Europe. I still believe he can be a great player but he needs to work hard in order to achieve that.

I also can't understand how some of you just refuse to comprehend that we need a world class manager to develop young talents like Arthur, De Jong, Dembele etc. Imagine what would have happened if Xavi, Pique, Pedro, Iniesta or Busquets were managed by Valverde and not Pep from the start of their career. There is one more thing, if majority of players are too fat or injured 24/7 than WTF are our coaches doing?! Half of our squad can't breathe after 60 minutes and that's a clear responsibility of Valverde and his coaching team.

 

[mc_lovin]

You know that Busquets, besides Rakitic, gets heavily criticized as well? For me its not about copying Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta, but actually creating a new, great midfield (like Madrids was). And for that you need great players (simple!). Rakitic and Vidal are not world class talents (never were). Im pretty sure Arthur is one (since day 1 in preseason) - but to be fair thats all opinion/gut feeling. We will see.

One thing is for sure though: Rakitic-Vidal-Busquets is not the answer. Or Rakitic-workhorse-Vidal. Or workhorse - workhorse - workhorse. Madrid had 2(!) great cms and a workhorse, we had 3 back then. Hopefully Arthur and Frenkie are next in line. If we dont find a 3rd complementing great midfielder I would take a physical workhorse like Casemiro ;-)


But your workhorse/physical midfielder argument is just weak. You need greatness. If Arthur and Frenkie dont work out we have to look at the next "best" talents. But at the moment Frenkie and Arthur are the best shots we have (or anyone for that matter).

 

[Gaudi]

@BBZ
I often agree with your points, people do tend to get overexcited for every young player that comes, but this is purely on coach.
Yes, we can talk about Arthur, is he the best potential ever or has flaws, Dembele, Coutinho for god sake....but we lost, NO, got destroyed by likes of Milner, Handerson and Origano in attack! Sorry, but imagine this guys in Barca?

Our midfield is not balanced with Raki and Busi in it - they are slow and leave a lot of space in covering. They can play in 5 man midfield, they would struggle in 4, let alone in 3. That's why when we have a perfect game, our full backs add width and basically we have 5 in midfield, but when they are pushed we are screwed.
But who insists on this slow midfield?
I saw a lot of scared players that night in Liverpool, yes, we can try to buy only winners but at the end of the day general is responsible for the moral as well.

We are currently talking about buying De jong (already here), De Light, Griezman and so on, sorry but once again we got owned by ORIGATO!!!??
So, we can talk about Arthur, Alena and so on but ONLY whe we have competant coach who trully learns from mistakes, who learns from the games as well and who knows that we need a change in our approach, mental and tactical.
As long as we have a scared coward who thinks slow sideways, without movement, passing is good enough we will have Liverpool or Romas nights in CL no matter the names in our squad.

 

[Potroh]

No use to answer your recent repetitive brain-farts again and again, but perhaps for the last time I take out this nice sentence:

Yet, your idea of technical football hasn't produced any CLs or big titles for Spain, Barca and Pep since 2012.

So the Barca 2015 wasn't technical football?
Real Madrid were not technically outstanding?
Even the physical English teams that won weren't technical enough?
All teams winning since 2012 were bullfighters only?

More height, more stamina, more physicality, that's the path to follow... sure... Never thought of buying CR7 for Barca???
But enough's been said.

You seemingly don't watch this game or perhaps with one eye in the paper to compare reality with statistics...
Sorry my friend, your slightly autistic attitude is just hopeless.
Do viđenja!

 

[Raketa10]

@BBZ
I often agree with your points, people do tend to get overexcited for every young player that comes, but this is purely on coach.
Yes, we can talk about Arthur, is he the best potential ever or has flaws, Dembele, Coutinho for god sake....but we lost, NO, got destroyed by likes of Milner, Handerson and Origano in attack! Sorry, but imagine this guys in Barca?

Our midfield is not balanced with Raki and Busi in it - they are slow and leave a lot of space in covering. They can play in 5 man midfield, they would struggle in 4, let alone in 3. That's why when we have a perfect game, our full backs add width and basically we have 5 in midfield, but when they are pushed we are screwed.
But who insists on this slow midfield?
I saw a lot of scared players that night in Liverpool, yes, we can try to buy only winners but at the end of the day general is responsible for the moral as well.

We are currently talking about buying De jong (already here), De Light, Griezman and so on, sorry but once again we got owned by ORIGATO!!!??
So, we can talk about Arthur, Alena and so on but ONLY whe we have competant coach who trully learns from mistakes, who learns from the games as well and who knows that we need a change in our approach, mental and tactical.
As long as we have a scared coward who thinks slow sideways, without movement, passing is good enough we will have Liverpool or Romas nights in CL no matter the names in our squad.

Great post!

 

[te amo barca]

BBZ, do you realize that we were destroyed while having a “thuggish” midfield of Busi-Raki-Vidal in our most important game of the season?

 

[mc_lovin]

Maybe his dream is Liverpools midfield? Aka hard working no names (maybe too harsh). And to be fair someone like Klopp can make that work for a season or two. But for the Barcelonas/Madrids/Munichs of this world?

 

[jamrock]

So having a DM is casemiro makes the entire midfield a thuggish.

Modric & kroos haven't been compared to xavi & iniesta there entire careers, and only came to the top after those 2 retired.

Okay copy you in your alternative reality. 👌

 

[Hamzah]

You guys are missing the point. A “pure” tiki taka team like Pep’s Barcelona is extremely hard to replicate, without the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Alves all in their primes. That pure tiki taka team was so good it could play one type of football and win. In most circumstances, a team will need a variety of ways of playing and have the ability to adapt to the opponent.

The Madrid team of recent years was technical, of course you need technical quality, but they had other aspects to them and weren’t a pure tiki taka team in the mould of Pep’s Barcelona. They could play the wings, counter, compete in physical battles, score from set plays, even bus park. The last time Barca won was not in a pure tiki taka style either. 2015 Barca could play counters and compete physically.

I want Barcelona to be able to play with posession as a base, because it is the best for winning league titles and gives your team an identity to build around, but to have other aspects to their play. The ability to play the wings if needed, counter when needed, have players that can help compete physically, score from set pieces etc. It’s a style that’s replicable and proven to win. Think Rijkaard’s Barca or Lucho’s Barca in his first one and a half seasons.

About Arthur, he is a good young talent that can be a starter at Barca, but he needs to be surrounded with players that can make up for his weak areas. In fact if you compare the emerging Barca midfield to the successful Madrid team, Arthur is like Kroos, de Jong is like Modric. Now those two need a player like Casemiro behind them to provide physicality and defensive skills, Busquets with those two is just a bad fit imo.

 

[FCBfan22]

About Arthur, he is a good young talent that can be a starter at Barca, but he needs to be surrounded with players that can make up for his weak areas. In fact if you compare the emerging Barca midfield to the successful Madrid team, Arthur is like Kroos, de Jong is like Modric. Now those two need a player like Casemiro behind them to provide physicality and defensive skills, Busquets with those two is just a bad fit imo.

I agree with this paragraph 100%.

There are two options tho... You can play De Jong at CDM and have a box to box high workrate midfielder next to Arthur (think Ndombele). The other is the one you suggested.

We would be quite flexible that way.

 

[jamrock]

No one is saying we should play pure tiki taka, but it seems bbz and others seem to believe you need straight thugs to win in the CL and change facts like Madrid's midfield being one with thugs to fit there narrative

 

[Potroh]

About Arthur, he is a good young talent that can be a starter at Barca, but he needs to be surrounded with players that can make up for his weak areas. In fact if you compare the emerging Barca midfield to the successful Madrid team, Arthur is like Kroos, de Jong is like Modric. Now those two need a player like Casemiro behind them to provide physicality and defensive skills, Busquets with those two is just a bad fit imo.

Arthur is nothing like Kroos, the latter is way better offensively.
We know nothing about De Jong, how he can accommodate to another team, these hopes are just wishful thinking. Specially compared to Modric.
Casemiro although being tough and often very defensive, is capable of scoring more goals - including headers - in a week, compared to the lifetime of goals by Busquets.