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The most decisive in unimportant games, but even with forcing iniesta on the wing he did nothing when we needed him.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Every Barca game in important.
When Iniesta, Cesc and Xavi played none of them played well. Cesc alternated with Iniesta in a lot of those games an played some time on the wing also and in a lot of those games he was better than Iniesta.
I think its safe to say some games are more important than others, CL knock outs, classicos, ya kno.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
All I'm saying is that I literally posted a formation that was almost identical to what Cruyff drew up at 3:15 and some people quoted it as being the most stupid thing they had seen on here. I called it a 3-5-2 only because the wingers were a little deeper. Other than that identical, and if you listen to what he says beginning at 3:20, he explains why a 3 back formation against a 4-4-2 will always equate in a man advantage in the MF. While I think the modern incarnation of these tactics won't involve those CBs attacking the way he mentions Reiziger and Sergi used to, as long as we have players with work rates and pace like Alexis and Alba out wide, there would be enough defensive cover to make up for the lack of steel in the center.
Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com
Cruyff provides an excellent philosophical base for the advantages of a 3 back system but its important to consider what this shape will provide us with, and I see it as two-fold: a) extra defensive cover and protection, a 3 back with a high line can have a lot of success running the trap. One of the most important defensive features of Pep's era was how effectively we ran the offside trap and that was due to organization and cohesion at the back. A lot of people forget about that and its a key part that makes high-line defenses work. Without organization and cohesion, defenders sit deeper and it works to our disadvantage instead. b) offensively, we can be both dynamic off the counter attack by attacking quickly down the wings but we still have the diamond in the center, providing us with the man advantage in the center to still play tiki-taka. That's why I like this setup so much, you can play direct or utilize the advantage in the center to hold possession.
I love how when I post something like this, it gets written off as dumb but whenever someone posts a video with Cruyff solidifying my initial argument that I got blasted on a few days prior, its tactical mastery.
ebieymjunior
Senior Member
All I'm saying is that I literally posted a formation that was almost identical to what Cruyff drew up at 3:15 and some people quoted it as being the most stupid thing they had seen on here. I called it a 3-5-2 only because the wingers were a little deeper. Other than that identical, and if you listen to what he says beginning at 3:20, he explains why a 3 back formation against a 4-4-2 will always equate in a man advantage in the MF. While I think the modern incarnation of these tactics won't involve those CBs attacking the way he mentions Reiziger and Sergi used to, as long as we have players with work rates and pace like Alexis and Alba out wide, there would be enough defensive cover to make up for the lack of steel in the center.
Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com
Cruyff provides an excellent philosophical base for the advantages of a 3 back system but its important to consider what this shape will provide us with, and I see it as two-fold: a) extra defensive cover and protection, a 3 back with a high line can have a lot of success running the trap. One of the most important defensive features of Pep's era was how effectively we ran the offside trap and that was due to organization and cohesion at the back. A lot of people forget about that and its a key part that makes high-line defenses work. Without organization and cohesion, defenders sit deeper and it works to our disadvantage instead. b) offensively, we can be both dynamic off the counter attack by attacking quickly down the wings but we still have the diamond in the center, providing us with the man advantage in the center to still play tiki-taka. That's why I like this setup so much, you can play direct or utilize the advantage in the center to hold possession.
I love how when I post something like this, it gets written off as dumb but whenever someone posts a video with Cruyff solidifying my initial argument that I got blasted on a few days prior, its tactical mastery.
Once you post a 3 man defense system, people tend to not take you seriously. Tried that once...
We should realise that defense is an important aspect of football.
All I'm saying is that I literally posted a formation that was almost identical to what Cruyff drew up at 3:15 and some people quoted it as being the most stupid thing they had seen on here. I called it a 3-5-2 only because the wingers were a little deeper. Other than that identical, and if you listen to what he says beginning at 3:20, he explains why a 3 back formation against a 4-4-2 will always equate in a man advantage in the MF. While I think the modern incarnation of these tactics won't involve those CBs attacking the way he mentions Reiziger and Sergi used to, as long as we have players with work rates and pace like Alexis and Alba out wide, there would be enough defensive cover to make up for the lack of steel in the center.
Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com
Cruyff provides an excellent philosophical base for the advantages of a 3 back system but its important to consider what this shape will provide us with, and I see it as two-fold: a) extra defensive cover and protection, a 3 back with a high line can have a lot of success running the trap. One of the most important defensive features of Pep's era was how effectively we ran the offside trap and that was due to organization and cohesion at the back. A lot of people forget about that and its a key part that makes high-line defenses work. Without organization and cohesion, defenders sit deeper and it works to our disadvantage instead. b) offensively, we can be both dynamic off the counter attack by attacking quickly down the wings but we still have the diamond in the center, providing us with the man advantage in the center to still play tiki-taka. That's why I like this setup so much, you can play direct or utilize the advantage in the center to hold possession.
I love how when I post something like this, it gets written off as dumb but whenever someone posts a video with Cruyff solidifying my initial argument that I got blasted on a few days prior, its tactical mastery.
The most important part of this formation if you ask me is that messi plays behind someone and that should force him to play like he does for argentina. If we buy Laporte Pique should be in the middle since he's the slowest of all of them and leave the running to Bartra and Laporte. With Messi in the middle Busquets will be able to do more of his tempo and defensive work. Iniesta isnt as much of a workhorse as the way Cruyff described that position but Alba is Alba and he'll make up for it, him given free reign down the flank would help pressing too.
Edit: Its only a 3 man defense in name since Busquets would basically be a 4th CB.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Pep tried to play 3-4-3 and it didnt work.
The formation is not the problem it is the players and how they play tactically.
If Messi was to play behind a striker his work rate would need to improve massively or it would leave the midfield very exposed.
iniesta_8
New member
Barca 14/15 quadruple winner - team:
-------------------------------Messi-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DLuiz - Terry - Ivanovic - Cahill - RF - Kompany- Demichelis - Vidic - Pique
-----------------------------Courtois-------------------------------------------------
Coach: J. M.
-------------------------------Messi-------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DLuiz - Terry - Ivanovic - Cahill - RF - Kompany- Demichelis - Vidic - Pique
-----------------------------Courtois-------------------------------------------------
Coach: J. M.
Last edited:
BarçAjax8
New member
All I'm saying is that I literally posted a formation that was almost identical to what Cruyff drew up at 3:15 and some people quoted it as being the most stupid thing they had seen on here. I called it a 3-5-2 only because the wingers were a little deeper. Other than that identical, and if you listen to what he says beginning at 3:20, he explains why a 3 back formation against a 4-4-2 will always equate in a man advantage in the MF. While I think the modern incarnation of these tactics won't involve those CBs attacking the way he mentions Reiziger and Sergi used to, as long as we have players with work rates and pace like Alexis and Alba out wide, there would be enough defensive cover to make up for the lack of steel in the center.
Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com
Cruyff provides an excellent philosophical base for the advantages of a 3 back system but its important to consider what this shape will provide us with, and I see it as two-fold: a) extra defensive cover and protection, a 3 back with a high line can have a lot of success running the trap. One of the most important defensive features of Pep's era was how effectively we ran the offside trap and that was due to organization and cohesion at the back. A lot of people forget about that and its a key part that makes high-line defenses work. Without organization and cohesion, defenders sit deeper and it works to our disadvantage instead. b) offensively, we can be both dynamic off the counter attack by attacking quickly down the wings but we still have the diamond in the center, providing us with the man advantage in the center to still play tiki-taka. That's why I like this setup so much, you can play direct or utilize the advantage in the center to hold possession.
I love how when I post something like this, it gets written off as dumb but whenever someone posts a video with Cruyff solidifying my initial argument that I got blasted on a few days prior, its tactical mastery.
Always have enjoyed your posts especially about tactics/personnel. The thing is, most people can't even begin to think of playing a certain way unless it's done and you win the Treble with it. Pep played the 3-4-3 (3-1-3-3) and some say "it didn't work" just because we didn't win Liga/CL. How can 2 games decide wether a system was successful or not? lol
From 08-12 when we maintained possession and were in full attack we essentially became a back 3 (Abidal - Puyol - Pique) with Busquets (Yaya) - 1 sitting front of them, Xavi - Iniesta - Dani (3) in the midfield and Villa (Eto'o/Henry) - Messi - Pedro as the front 3. Football has evolved so Cruyff's back 3 (essentially a back 1 when the wide players attack) wouldn't work but if we have 3 mobile/strong CBs the formation you drew would work. But even with the change and with younger legs helping with the dirty work it would still be too chaotic with Cesc and Iniesta on the pitch together. Cesc best operates around the box as you can see in any of his videos. Having both on the pitch would still leave too much for the CBs and flank players to cover. We'll still need a Oliver Torres/Kroos/Gundogan to replace Xavi so I don't have a problem letting Cesc go for the right price and right replacement.
Cule4life
The Culest
Ursegor
World Champion
That is a very basic theoretical explanation. In reality players aren't statues. This is Atletico's average shape against Chelsea:
4-4-2? More like 2-4-4 with emphasis on overloading Chelsea's right side. If you line up in your "3-5-2" Simeone will reshape his players in 5 seconds in-game. For example move Villa to the left wing and make it 4-5-1 or start with Diego instead of 2 striker to begin with. Then you will look stupid with 3 centerbacks on the pitch up against 1 striker which means you will have numerical disadvantage elsewhere on the pitch.
The idea is also not good because even if for a second we accept that it is a good idea against Atletico, it is the worst idea ever against heavy wing-based team like Real Madrid, Bayern or any other top team for that matter. So buying specific players like Martinez for just that kind of game and practicising that formation on a daily routine to get the cohesion right and make it work just for such a "one off" opponent like Atletico will be a waste of ressources.
It also still remains a mystery to me how Alexis will create something offensively against F. Luis and Arda defending him on his own and how that is a good idea even in theory to break a bus, nevermind Alba on the left.
Our current 4-3-3 as it is is already as fluent as it gets. Your formation is heavily restrictive. Just compare the individual zones:
Right now we can overload the left wing with Neymar, Iniesta and Alba. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compared to now.
Right now we can overload the right wing with Alexis, Alves and Messi. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compare to now.
Right now we can overload the box with Messi, Neymar and Alexis + Iniesta. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compared to now.
Only thing we gain is 3 central defenders to stop Diego Costa.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
That is a very basic theoretical explanation. In reality players aren't statues. This is Atletico's average shape against Chelsea:
4-4-2? More like 2-4-4 with emphasis on overloading Chelsea's right side. If you line up in your "3-5-2" Simeone will reshape his players in 5 seconds in-game. For example move Villa to the left wing and make it 4-5-1 or start with Diego instead of 2 striker to begin with. Then you will look stupid with 3 centerbacks on the pitch up against 1 striker which means you will have numerical disadvantage elsewhere on the pitch.
The idea is also not good because even if for a second we accept that it is a good idea against Atletico, it is the worst idea ever against heavy wing-based team like Real Madrid, Bayern or any other top team for that matter. So buying specific players like Martinez for just that kind of game and practicising that formation on a daily routine to get the cohesion right and make it work just for such a "one off" opponent like Atletico will be a waste of ressources.
It also still remains a mystery to me how Alexis will create something offensively against F. Luis and Arda defending him on his own and how that is a good idea even in theory to break a bus, nevermind Alba on the left.
Our current 4-3-3 as it is is already as fluent as it gets. Your formation is heavily restrictive. Just compare the individual zones:
Right now we can overload the left wing with Neymar, Iniesta and Alba. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compared to now.
Right now we can overload the right wing with Alexis, Alves and Messi. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compare to now.
Right now we can overload the box with Messi, Neymar and Alexis + Iniesta. With your formation gaining no superiority in that area compared to now.
Only thing we gain is 3 central defenders to stop Diego Costa.
Dude, I swear do you even read my posts...? I stated quite earlier that this is what we should use against buses, NOT for every team we play. The biggest reason why I drew this up is to show the advantages of having different tactical shapes. Ideally, next season we need to be able to fluidly execute three different tactical schemes dependent upon whom we play.
As far as how this formation would play out tactically, your scenario of Simeone pulling Villa out to the left wing achieves precisely what you want tactically to set out to do with isolating strikers and breaking up the fluidity of their attacks. While that graphic you posted shows more of almost a 4-2-3-1 of sorts, its important that they were playing Chelsea and had to play more adventurous. Go back and watch when they played us in the CL and you will see that its a definite 4-4-2. Same with Madrid in the CdR final.
With the whole comparison to our current 4-3-3 and my 3-5-2, my formation does the 1st with allowing Neymar, Iniesta and Alba to overload the left. Messi, Alexis, Rafinha on the right and Messi, Neymar, Alexis, Rafinha and Iniesta all with the potential to attack the box. It does all of the things our current formation does, plus that added defensive stability.
Another thing you seem to be overlooking is that particularly Messi, Neymar and Rafinha won't remain static in their positions. There is a reason why I have Rafinha's name before Cesc and its due to Rafinha's ability to float outside and create scoring opportunities off the dribble or through a pass from out wide. While Cesc is a master of working the center areas, Rafinha can create from the center and from out wide, a lot like how Iniesta does. So you're wrong in your assumption that Alba and Alexis will be taking on two players by themselves out wide.
Lastly, I'd argue our current 4-3-3 is more restrictive than this formation.
Observe:
That yellow space behind our wingbacks is where teams have constantly been exploiting us off the break, and having that third defender instead of only two allows us to defend that space much easier without us getting stretched. The reason why I think its restrictive is mainly to what it forces Alexis and Neymar to do. With those overlaps outside, it restricts the space they like to play in naturally (watch Alexis at Udinese, Neymar at Santos) which forces them to check inside where there isn't a lot of space. Its why Scolari said Barca's current formation doesn't suit Neymar, because it restricts where he can move. Henry and Eto'o made the false 9 formation work so well because they were comfortable with slipping in between markers to make a run into the box, but its mentally because they think as strikers. Neymar and Alexis think like wingers and its why they have been inconsistent out wide, particularly in big games.
I know after all of that, you will still find a way to disagree with me but honestly, can you at least see why there is some tactical merit to playing with the 3 at the back against 4-4-2 buses?
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