Bernardo Silva

Raketa10

Senior Member
So the best Barca team of all time was made of real GIANTS:

Pedro 167cm
Messi 169cm
Xavi 170 cm
Iniesta 170 cm
Alves 172 cm
Villa 175 cm
Puyol 178 cm
Masche 174 cm
Valdes 183 cm (a midget for a goalkeeper)

And our main problem today is that we are physically weak?!?! Really???
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
So the best Barca team of all time was made of real GIANTS:

Pedro 167cm
Messi 169cm
Xavi 170 cm
Iniesta 170 cm
Alves 172 cm
Villa 175 cm
Puyol 178 cm
Masche 174 cm
Valdes 183 cm (a midget for a goalkeeper)

And our main problem today is that we are physically weak?!?! Really???

Omg, here we go again.
The best Barca team was the best because we had Xavi-Iniesta-Messi.

Name one team in world's history, who won anything with midget players WITHOUT Xavi in their team to control the midfield.

A midfield with short midfielders worked only once in a history.
And imo, it won't work ever again.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Omg, here we go again.
The best Barca team was the best because we had Xavi-Iniesta-Messi.

Name one team in world's history, who won anything with midget players WITHOUT Xavi in their team to control the midfield.

A midfield with short midfielders worked only once in a history.
And imo, it won't work ever again.

This team just won 5 of the last 6 trophies before this season and now you are trying to make out they are too small to win.

As bad as people harping back to Peps time you seem to bring every debate round to Rijkaards less successful time.

You make out people are actively wanting small players when no one is saying they want a team full but think a small player who is better techincally would suit team more than talller more physical player.

Who do you want Barca to sign to improve physicality?
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
This team just won 5 of the last 6 trophies before this season and now you are trying to make out they are too small to win.

As bad as people harping back to Peps time you seem to bring every debate round to Rijkaards less successful time.

Because we still have Messi-Iniesta

Soon Iniesta will be gone as well and only Messi will remain
Yet it seems we have not moved on from that yet
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Because we still have Messi-Iniesta

Soon Iniesta will be gone as well and only Messi will remain
Yet it seems we have not moved on from that yet

None of that has anything to do with the point and Iniesta has not been that great the past few years anyway.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Totally disagree that the way to go is more muscle and height at expense of technique.

That in a lot of ways is what Lucho has done. Would much prefer going down the road of more technical players and letting the opposition worry about Barca and dominating the ball.

Some things need to change though and Messi needs to go back to the RW and work a bit harder in defence for there to be less reliance on midfield covering him. That and a midfield that MSN can trust to create and allow them to be difference makers in final third.

At moment dont think MSN have that much trust and too often left for Messi or Ney to drop deeper and create.

I agree, but imo he did such a bad job Lucho, that you can't say putting in a physically strong midfield behind MSN, with good defenders capable of winning the ball back, would not have its merits under different circumstances (different manager, different signings). Whether we would want that at Barca or not is a totally different discussion, but an important one nonetheless.

Lucho wanted a team that could do both phases of play in a rigid system. That means there are players who do mostly the offensive phase, and players who do mostly the defensive phase. This is rigid football tactics. Imagine a ball being lost by the striker, or by the right winger. In some tactical setups, the more fluid ones, these players would now vacate their normal position in order to participate in the defensive phase, or in an attempt to get the ball back. In a fluid system you have more players doing both phases, and the main reason why they can do that, is because they do not have a very strict position they need to occupy. I don't see that at Barca. I see players sticking to their positions almost all the time, even if the ball is played 80m. away from where they are standing. Those players in that moment, are completely out of the game. Irrelevant. You have 3-4 players like that, and suddenly you're an easy team to create chances against, because you defend with less players and, on top of that, the ones that you have are not great even at defending.

I explain Rakitic's signing like that. Tactical. Lucho wanted a player who could do both phases. Could contribute in offense by appearing with a long range shot, or even by surprisingly moving up to speculate gaps created by the movement of MSN (see his goal vs City, or his goal vs Juventus). But more importanty, he wanted the same player to do his job in defense in a way that is not assisted by Messi, and occasionally, not assisted by Alves either (when he was caught up). Rakitic is not a specialist. But he was and still is a player who can do quite some things. Can score, can even provide a surprising assist, is even quite good at heading the ball, can put a tackle, works hard. So, he has qualities that can make him reasonably useful in both aspects of play: defense and attack.

Kroos was different. He was a skilled specialist player with great qualities on the ball, but a player who was problematic for his team when off the ball. See how players from the other team speculate this when Casemiro is not playing. In a fluid, semi-fluid system, Kroos is clearly the better player, because it means there is more density in the area where the ball is, and more density means less reliance on one's personal defensive skills. But when there is no density being created, and your teammates are withing a 20-25m. radius from your position, then you need to rely on your own defensive ability. Rakitic can do this better than Kroos. He does better defensively when isolated from his teammates.

The biggest failing of Lucho is that, by being focused on versatility, he has created a team that lacks a cutting edge in both aspects. He lacks a specialist creative midfielder to make the difference in attack, and he lacks ball winners in midfield. If we had those ball winners and great defensive players we would have never lost 0-4 to PSG and 0-3 with Juventus, because when the ball was lost, they would have been much better at controlling those situations. Who is supposed to win the ball back? Iniesta? :lol: Roberto, the midfielder played as RB? Gomes? :lol: Turan? :lol:

What I saw this season is a team playing in a way without having the right players for that tactic.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
I understand exactly how Lucho wants to play but it will never suit to have midfielders there to mind the front three or mark certain areas of the park is not what Barca is about to me.

Every single day of the week I would have a Kroos type player in my team at Barca ahead of what is there just now and dont think it compromises anything defensively.

While Real have two of the best ball playing midfielders in the world folk seem to want an already poor midfield on the ball to be replaced by 'physical' players as if that is the main attribute required. Not for me and that is not the Barca I want to see at all.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
I agree, but imo he did such a bad job Lucho, that you can't say putting in a physically strong midfield behind MSN, with good defenders capable of winning the ball back, would not have its merits under different circumstances (different manager, different signings). Whether we would want that at Barca or not is a totally different discussion, but an important one nonetheless.

Lucho wanted a team that could do both phases of play in a rigid system. That means there are players who do mostly the offensive phase, and players who do mostly the defensive phase. This is rigid football tactics. Imagine a ball being lost by the striker, or by the right winger. In some tactical setups, the more fluid ones, these players would now vacate their normal position in order to participate in the defensive phase, or in an attempt to get the ball back. In a fluid system you have more players doing both phases, and the main reason why they can do that, is because they do not have a very strict position they need to occupy. I don't see that at Barca. I see players sticking to their positions almost all the time, even if the ball is played 80m. away from where they are standing. Those players in that moment, are completely out of the game. Irrelevant. You have 3-4 players like that, and suddenly you're an easy team to create chances against, because you defend with less players and, on top of that, the ones that you have are not great even at defending.

I explain Rakitic's signing like that. Tactical. Lucho wanted a player who could do both phases. Could contribute in offense by appearing with a long range shot, or even by surprisingly moving up to speculate gaps created by the movement of MSN (see his goal vs City, or his goal vs Juventus). But more importanty, he wanted the same player to do his job in defense in a way that is not assisted by Messi, and occasionally, not assisted by Alves either (when he was caught up). Rakitic is not a specialist. But he was and still is a player who can do quite some things. Can score, can even provide a surprising assist, is even quite good at heading the ball, can put a tackle, works hard. So, he has qualities that can make him reasonably useful in both aspects of play: defense and attack.

Kroos was different. He was a skilled specialist player with great qualities on the ball, but a player who was problematic for his team when off the ball. See how players from the other team speculate this when Casemiro is not playing. In a fluid, semi-fluid system, Kroos is clearly the better player, because it means there is more density in the area where the ball is, and more density means less reliance on one's personal defensive skills. But when there is no density being created, and your teammates are withing a 20-25m. radius from your position, then you need to rely on your own defensive ability. Rakitic can do this better than Kroos. He does better defensively when isolated from his teammates.

The biggest failing of Lucho is that, by being focused on versatility, he has created a team that lacks a cutting edge in both aspects. He lacks a specialist creative midfielder to make the difference in attack, and he lacks ball winners in midfield. If we had those ball winners and great defensive players we would have never lost 0-4 to PSG and 0-3 with Juventus, because when the ball was lost, they would have been much better at controlling those situations. Who is supposed to win the ball back? Iniesta? :lol: Roberto, the midfielder played as RB? Gomes? :lol: Turan? :lol:

What I saw this season is a team playing in a way without having the right players for that tactic.

Can you speculate the best formation for next season? And the lineups (without Silva, Coutinho) and another with Silva/Coutinho

So that we can compare and contrast
 

Raketa10

Senior Member
Can we stick to midfielders in this thread? Name few midfielders who would be ideal for CM/AM spot.
 
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gasgas

Senior Member
Name a couple players you want Barca to sign?
MIDFIELD
For starters i used to have Dahoud in mind but now he's taken
Best fits: Verratti, Koke

The rest: Kimmich, Weigl, Saul, Bazoer, Keita (not so bad perhaps),Lemar, Neves,

RB: Aurier, Sidibe, Fabinho etc
 

gasgas

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION]

It's also interesting to me how you never want to talk about how Bernardo Silva loses the ball a lot
3 times as much as Denis for instance and how that will affect our "keeping the ball in midfield so MSN can receive it in attack"
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION]

It's also interesting to me how you never want to talk about how Bernardo Silva loses the ball a lot
3 times as much as Denis for instance and how that will affect our "keeping the ball in midfield so MSN can receive it in attack"

Dont think I have mentioned Silva once either way. It is more about the argument of what type of player Barca need.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I understand exactly how Lucho wants to play but it will never suit to have midfielders there to mind the front three or mark certain areas of the park is not what Barca is about to me.

Every single day of the week I would have a Kroos type player in my team at Barca ahead of what is there just now and dont think it compromises anything defensively.

While Real have two of the best ball playing midfielders in the world folk seem to want an already poor midfield on the ball to be replaced by 'physical' players as if that is the main attribute required. Not for me and that is not the Barca I want to see at all.

It's not what Barca is about, true. But it can still work, if you fancy this type of playing. I don't it either, because it would basically be a similar style with what Sabella did with Argentina, albeit with a better front three.

If you can build a defensively solid team that will concede very few goals, MSN will create quite enough to win titles with this style. Again, provided you build a very strong team defensively, with a midfield that is very robust.
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION]

It's also interesting to me how you never want to talk about how Bernardo Silva loses the ball a lot
3 times as much as Denis for instance and how that will affect our "keeping the ball in midfield so MSN can receive it in attack"

Neymar loses the ball a lot as well. Bernardo Silva is the one who has to make things happen for Monaco. This means not only that he is allowed to take risks, but even that he has to take them because the manager knows he is the most skilled player in the team. So, I'm sure they actually have some tactical instructions that say 'when Bernardo does this, you X, and you Y, do that'.

What you need to understand is that, if we sign a ball playing midfielder with skill and speed, that player automatically is the main man for his team. Unless you sign him from a team full of stars which is almost impossible. Bernardo is like that, and Coutinho is like that. Being the main man at some other team means they have more license to do certain things. It doesn't mean that they can't adapt to a bigger team and reduce a bit the risks they take.

Would you say that Coutinho in Brazil, when he plays next to Neymar plays the same way he does at Liverpool, without Neymar, Marcelo etc.

We need players that make things happen. This is what we lack. Players who make things happen in midfield. Iniesta could do it, but his legs are gone. Basically, at Monaco, Bernardo takes the ball, gets past one player in a safe and controlled way, but he still has to do a lot more to get into scoring postions. And here is when the risks multiply, resulting in more lost balls. At Barca, at the moment, a nice first touch, a quick dribble forward and a good release is more than enough to take two players out. If we get a player who can make that first move, he doesn't have to take more risks after that. Passing options would reveal themselves. But nobody does this first move at Barca. Only Messi and Neymar, but they are NOT midfielders. Both Bernardo and Coutinho can do it. They will take on passing responsability, which Rakitic, Gomes and Denis don't do.

Of course, all this is useless if we don't get a very good manager. A very good manager for Barca means at this moment, a more fluid approach. Bring more players in both the defensive phase and the offensive phase. We need playmakers in midfield, which means we need a more collective form of defending when we lose the ball, because the playmakers won't magically transform into Gatussos and Makeleles when they don't have the ball. With a rigid approach, Coutinho and Bernardo won't be able to hold the position in defense. Players will get past them. But if we make density when the ball is lost and narrow down space for the opponent, defending will be easier, as it is no more 1 vs 1.
 
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