Bernardo Silva

[MIXA]

Why do you think that being physically strong is important?

We dominated football with Xavi and Iniesta remember.

Real Madrid are currently dominating with Modric and Kroos. None of their other midfielders are physically strong either - Isco, Asensio. Small in stature but good on the ball. They don't seem to have any problems.

 

[gasgas]

Why do you think that being physically strong is important?

We dominated football with Xavi and Iniesta remember.

Real Madrid are currently dominating with Modric and Kroos. None of their other midfielders are physically strong either - Isco, Asensio. Small in stature but good on the ball. They don't seem to have any problems.

Kroos and Modric are very good physically, they can tackle and defend especially when Madrid go defensive
Asensio is not a midfielder
Isco is mostly played more forward

 

[Raketa10]

Kroos and Modric are very good physically, they can tackle and defend especially when Madrid go defensive
Asensio is not a midfielder
Isco is mostly played more forward

Modric is good defensively but Kroos is definitely not perfect in defense. You have to find best solutions out there and adapt them. Otherwise you are chasing dreams like we are doing for 2 years already with Verratti.

Imo, even if we forget all problems mentioned in this topic, with Bernardo, teams like Bayern, Juve and Atletico will knock us out from a Cl again and again.

It will work against 90% of smaller teams.
Physical teams will shut him and our midfield easily.

Msn and 3 physically weaker midfielders may imply that we will just play our classic play (except in a slightly better version): repeat the same action for 100 times in a row and hope for the best.
If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter, keep on trying it again and again.

If Messi drops to the middle, that will be two short Cams in Messi and Silva.
A small Neymar in attack, slow Luis Suarez.
Turtles Busi and Raki behind them, two fullbacks without Iq in Alba and Bellerin infront of them.

In general, imo, Bernardo alone is not the problem.
Our problrms are way deeper and we would need to change 2-3 starters and add a plan b and avoid our one dimensional style of passing and dribbling through the ground.

In the last 4 Cl Ko's we lost to the same type of teams over and over: Bayern, Am, Am, Juve.

Do you guys think that the same style of play and a new midfielder like Bernardo will fix our problems in a Cl?
I don't think so.

Whether we will play better against Bilbao and Espanyol?
Well, that is another story.

But I am not interested in players who will improve us against Espanyol.

We can buy Bernardo, but then we need to sell some of Msn and buy some stronger players. Which won't happen yet.
So we can't have both Msn and even more physically poor players.

Ok so what is your solution? And I do not agree that he would not improve us. Name ONE Barca midfielder except Iniesta (who is 33 years old) who can control ball perfectly in small spaces? Just one! We definitely need one player who can do that. Gomes, Rakitic, Rafinha and Denis have nowhere near that level of ball control.

And stop expecting that we will sign 2 new midfielders. That won't happen. I would be more than fine if we find Iniesta successor this summer and honestly I do not see anyone out there who would be better for that role than Bernardo but OK I might be wrong.

And one more thing, the reason we lost from ATM, Bayern and Juve is not entirely players fault but I would say managers are equally responsible for that.

I honestly don't understand you people, one day you wan't Lucho out since he has ruined Barca style of play and the next day you want to have Nainggolan type of players here because we need physically strong players who can compete against ATM or Juve! I think that we have showed more than once that size does not matter when you have a perfect technique!

 

[gasgas]

Ok so what is your solution? And I do not agree that he would not improve us. Name ONE Barca midfielder except Iniesta (who is 33 years old) who can control ball perfectly in small spaces? Just one! We definitely need one player who can do that. Gomes, Rakitic, Rafinha and Denis have nowhere near that level of ball control.

And stop expecting that we will sign 2 new midfielders. That won't happen. I would be more than fine if we find Iniesta successor this summer and honestly I do not see anyone out there who would be better for that role than Bernardo but OK I might be wrong.

And one more thing, the reason we lost from ATM, Bayern and Juve is not entirely players fault but I would say managers are equally responsible for that.

Why look for an Iniesta replacement while we still haven't even found a Xavi replacement

Modric is good defensively but Kroos is definitely not perfect in defense. You have to find best solutions out there and adapt them. Otherwise you are chasing dreams like we are doing for 2 years already with Verratti.

Surprisingly Kroos' defensive stats are much better than Rakitic, the worldclass "workhorse"

Based on whoscored
Kroos makes more tackles, more interceptions, with fewer fouls and marginally fewer clearances

 

[TornAndFrayed]

Why look for an Iniesta replacement while we still haven't even found a Xavi replacement



Surprisingly Kroos' defensive stats are much better than Rakitic, the worldclass "workhorse"

Based on whoscored
Kroos makes more tackles, more interceptions, with fewer fouls and marginally fewer clearances

Where would you be without whoscored, i mean you'd have to actually watch games right ?

 

[wisconsincule]

Silva can play on the right hand side of a MF 3. Ball retention and his passing ability would be ideal for Barca.

Yes this. And he is very comfortable getting forward. We obviously would need a more defensive RB to cover for him but I think he would be good for us.

 

[BBZ8800]

Why do you think that being physically strong is important?

We dominated football with Xavi and Iniesta remember.

Real Madrid are currently dominating with Modric and Kroos. None of their other midfielders are physically strong either - Isco, Asensio. Small in stature but good on the ball. They don't seem to have any problems.

Barca's history in short in the last 20-25 years (since I am following Barca) was more or less:
90s (except 1992)=in general we always played too attacking, too naive, didn't have a good defense or we did have physically too weak players
early 00s=the same story. Either too attacking, too naive, physically weak players or poor defense (or more or less, we were poor in all of those things)
2005 and 2006, suddenly Rijkaard turned our naive and physically weak team into a Barca with flair, but also with more muscles (strong defenders Puyol/Oleguer/Marquez, strong-walls Cdms Edmilson/Motta/Marquez and somewhat stronger attackers like Ronaldinho, Etoo, Larsson)
2009 and later, Pep's obsession with extremely short players who can keep the ball till death.

But, but, but...
People always reply in similar debates how we had our best years in our history when we played with SHORT midfielders.
But, there is one huge BUT here (imo):
We had our best days NOT when we had short midfielders, BUT when we had ONCE IN A LIFETIME PRIME XAVI-INIESTA-MESSI.

I would dare to say that our system alone regarding short players who will keep the ball=is NOT that good as people think.
More or less, we played like that in 90s and 00s and we were NEVER good enough to win CL trophies, except in 1992 (but that even wasn't a CL like current's CL), and in 2006 when we weren't playing with weak midfield but with a mixture of muscles and technique (RB Oleguer, Cbs Puyol and Marquez, Cdm Edmilson/Motta, Cms Deco and Van Bommel). Look how much muscles we had back then. And we managed to win against Chelsea (who had insanely physically strong team and Milan, the same). Something which current Barca can't do and we are losing over and over to physically strong teams (the same as in 90s and early 00s).

So, more or less, our biggest problem in Europe was never Real Madrid, Man Utd, Arsenal, Porto and other teams who play attacking football.
Our problem were always Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, Bayern and Atletico. Physically strong teams who neutralize our physically weak midfield.

So, if we are planning to go back to midget midfielders, we really have to ask a question: has that shit ever worked in Europe except when we had Xavi and Iniesta?

Further, about your reply how Real is winning with Modric and Kroos, well, you don't see a larger picture:
1. Barca's midfield: midget players
2. Barca's attack: midget players
What is our only option=to play shortpasses and dribbles till death.
When the opponent like Juve or ATletico stops us, we can't have a plan B since all our players are midgets and there isn't even a chance to have a plan B.

Real?
Casemiro-Kroos are for the start stronger than Busi-Raki-Iniesta.
And on top of that, their attack is way physically stronger and not one dimensional.
CR7 can score with feet and head.
Neymar can't score either with feet or with head.
Benzema can score with feet and head.
Suarez can score with feet and from time to time with head.
Bale can score with feet and head.
Messi can score only with feet.

Do you see a difference?
Real has both a physically stronger midfield than us.
Plus, they can play a plan B with crosses since they have at least 3 tall/strong players in the box (plus Ramos).

Now let's go back to Silva-Raki-Busi-MSN lineup.
Imagine a match against Juve or AM.
Imo, it will end exactly the same as always.

Remember:
a midfield with short players never worked:
EXCEPT:
In 2009 when we had prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi.

Barca after Xavi sucks.
Spain after Xavi sucks.
Pep after Messi+Xavi+Iniesta sucks.

Once again, Xavi was the brain of Tiki-Taka football.
That kind of football or any later versions of it worked ONLY when a team had Xavi.
Barca is more or less a crap in that type of football without Xavi.
Spain is a crap past Xavi.
Pep and his possession based teams are a crap without Xavi.

So, people should ask themselves, is a Barca with physically weak players a way to go?
And is trying to copying Pep's era, but without prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi, really a way go?

For me, Rijkaard's football is the way to go currently.
A mixture of Barca's technique and some muscles in order so that we can respond to teams like Atletico, Juve and Bayern.

Try to compare Rijkaard's team from 2006:
Cdm Edmilson 186 cm (and not weak like Busquets)
Cm Deco 174 cm
Cm Van Bommel 187 cm (not weak like Gomes)
Lw Ronaldinho 181 cm (way stronger than Neymar. He wasn't falling on the ground in almost every duel)
Cf Etoo 180
Rw Messi/Guily
And a sub for all Lw, Cf, Rw positions: Larsson 175 cm (who wasn't tall, but he was banging headers like crazy, as a plan B)

Compare that too:
Bernardo 173 cm, phyiscally weak
Rakitic 184, slow and tired
Busi 189, tall but physically weak in duels
Neymar 175, weak physically
Messi 170 cm

In Rijkaard's days, we could score headers by Ronaldinho, Etoo and Larsson.
Since Pep, we are a one dimensional team for 7-8 years already and we are stuck in that era.

Today, our only sub for MSN is poor Paco.
Back then, our subs for Ronnie-Etoo-Guily were Messi (lol) and Larsson.
Imagine having someone like Larsson even today for scoring goals either with feet or with head
(But then, we have MSN and we can't have subs, that is a huge burden. Plus, MSN are built around individual plays, dribbles and playing on the ground.
So, we are stuck either way.)

Anyway:

 

[JamDav1982]

Totally disagree that the way to go is more muscle and height at expense of technique.

That in a lot of ways is what Lucho has done. Would much prefer going down the road of more technical players and letting the opposition worry about Barca and dominating the ball.

Some things need to change though and Messi needs to go back to the RW and work a bit harder in defence for there to be less reliance on midfield covering him. That and a midfield that MSN can trust to create and allow them to be difference makers in final third.

At moment dont think MSN have that much trust and too often left for Messi or Ney to drop deeper and create.

 

[gasgas]

Barca's history in short in the last 20-25 years (since I am following Barca) was more or less:
90s (except 1992)=in general we always played too attacking, too naive, didn't have a good defense or we did have physically too weak players
early 00s=the same story. Either too attacking, too naive, physically weak players or poor defense (or more or less, we were poor in all of those things)
2005 and 2006, suddenly Rijkaard turned our naive and physically weak team into a Barca with flair, but also with more muscles (strong defenders Puyol/Oleguer/Marquez, strong-walls Cdms Edmilson/Motta/Marquez and somewhat stronger attackers like Ronaldinho, Etoo, Larsson)
2009 and later, Pep's obsession with extremely short players who can keep the ball till death.

But, but, but...
People always reply in similar debates how we had our best years in our history when we played with SHORT midfielders.
But, there is one huge BUT here (imo):
We had our best days NOT when we had short midfielders, BUT when we had ONCE IN A LIFETIME PRIME XAVI-INIESTA-MESSI.

I would dare to say that our system alone regarding short players who will keep the ball=is NOT that good as people think.
More or less, we played like that in 90s and 00s and we were NEVER good enough to win CL trophies, except in 1992 (but that even wasn't a CL like current's CL), and in 2006 when we weren't playing with weak midfield but with a mixture of muscles and technique (RB Oleguer, Cbs Puyol and Marquez, Cdm Edmilson/Motta, Cms Deco and Van Bommel). Look how much muscles we had back then. And we managed to win against Chelsea (who had insanely physically strong team and Milan, the same). Something which current Barca can't do and we are losing over and over to physically strong teams (the same as in 90s and early 00s).

So, more or less, our biggest problem in Europe was never Real Madrid, Man Utd, Arsenal, Porto and other teams who play attacking football.
Our problem were always Juventus, Milan, Chelsea, Bayern and Atletico. Physically strong teams who neutralize our physically weak midfield.

So, if we are planning to go back to midget midfielders, we really have to ask a question: has that shit ever worked in Europe except when we had Xavi and Iniesta?

Further, about your reply how Real is winning with Modric and Kroos, well, you don't see a larger picture:
1. Barca's midfield: midget players
2. Barca's attack: midget players
What is our only option=to play shortpasses and dribbles till death.
When the opponent like Juve or ATletico stops us, we can't have a plan B since all our players are midgets and there isn't even a chance to have a plan B.

Real?
Casemiro-Kroos are for the start stronger than Busi-Raki-Iniesta.
And on top of that, their attack is way physically stronger and not one dimensional.
CR7 can score with feet and head.
Neymar can't score either with feet or with head.
Benzema can score with feet and head.
Suarez can score with feet and from time to time with head.
Bale can score with feet and head.
Messi can score only with feet.

Do you see a difference?
Real has both a physically stronger midfield than us.
Plus, they can play a plan B with crosses since they have at least 3 tall/strong players in the box (plus Ramos).

Now let's go back to Silva-Raki-Busi-MSN lineup.
Imagine a match against Juve or AM.
Imo, it will end exactly the same as always.

Remember:
a midfield with short players never worked:
EXCEPT:
In 2009 when we had prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi.

Barca after Xavi sucks.
Spain after Xavi sucks.
Pep after Messi+Xavi+Iniesta sucks.

Once again, Xavi was the brain of Tiki-Taka football.
That kind of football or any later versions of it worked ONLY when a team had Xavi.
Barca is more or less a crap in that type of football without Xavi.
Spain is a crap past Xavi.
Pep and his possession based teams are a crap without Xavi.

So, people should ask themselves, is a Barca with physically weak players a way to go?
And is trying to copying Pep's era, but without prime Xavi-Iniesta-Messi, really a way go?

For me, Rijkaard's football is the way to go currently.
A mixture of Barca's technique and some muscles in order so that we can respond to teams like Atletico, Juve and Bayern.

Try to compare Rijkaard's team from 2006:
Cdm Edmilson 186 cm (and not weak like Busquets)
Cm Deco 174 cm
Cm Van Bommel 187 cm (not weak like Gomes)
Lw Ronaldinho 181 cm (way stronger than Neymar. He wasn't falling on the ground in almost every duel)
Cf Etoo 180
Rw Messi/Guily
And a sub for all Lw, Cf, Rw positions: Larsson 175 cm (who wasn't tall, but he was banging headers like crazy, as a plan B)

Compare that too:
Bernardo 173 cm, phyiscally weak
Rakitic 184, slow and tired
Busi 189, tall but physically weak in duels
Neymar 175, weak physically
Messi 170 cm

In Rijkaard's days, we could score headers by Ronaldinho, Etoo and Larsson.
Since Pep, we are a one dimensional team for 7-8 years already and we are stuck in that era.

Today, our only sub for MSN is poor Paco.
Back then, our subs for Ronnie-Etoo-Guily were Messi (lol) and Larsson.
Imagine having someone like Larsson even today for scoring goals either with feet or with head
(But then, we have MSN and we can't have subs, that is a huge burden. Plus, MSN are built around individual plays, dribbles and playing on the ground.
So, we are stuck either way.)

Anyway:

Totally disagree that the way to go is more muscle and height at expense of technique.

That in a lot of ways is what Lucho has done. Would much prefer going down the road of more technical players and letting the opposition worry about Barca and dominating the ball.

Some things need to change though and Messi needs to go back to the RW and work a bit harder in defence for there to be less reliance on midfield covering him. That and a midfield that MSN can trust to create and allow them to be difference makers in final third.

At moment dont think MSN have that much trust and too often left for Messi or Ney to drop deeper and create.

How? We are not even more physical than we used to be

Basically Lucho took away both physical and technique
Not one at the expense of the other
And we need both back

How can we dominate the ball by having players who give it away all the time? Bernardo Silva gives it away 4 times compared to Iniesta, Neymar is Neymar, Suarez.......

How can you expect a 30 year old Messi to suddenly start defending and run more than 6 km a game?

How can you expect us to cope with an aging Messi, who is stripped off his defensive cover?

How can you expect Messi to agree going back to RW, and then place anarchic midfielders who prefer dribbling to pass and move? Dribbling means more possession lost, means the ball is lost long before it even reaches Messi?

How do you define a technical player? It seems to me your definition puts so much weight on dribbling and trying too hard Neymar style

 

[JamDav1982]

How? We are not even more physical than we used to be

Basically Lucho took away both physical and technique
Not one at the expense of the other
And we need both back

How can we dominate the ball by having players who give it away all the time? Bernardo Silva gives it away 4 times compared to Iniesta, Neymar is Neymar, Suarez.......

How can you expect a 30 year old Messi to suddenly start defending and run more than 6 km a game?

How can you expect us to cope with an aging Messi, who is stripped off his defensive cover?

How can you expect Messi to agree going back to RW, and then place anarchic midfielders who prefer dribbling to pass and move? Dribbling means more possession lost, means the ball is lost long before it even reaches Messi?

How do you define a technical player? It seems to me your definition puts so much weight on dribbling and trying too hard Neymar style

Lucho chose to sign Raki instead of Kroos says it all. He gave up the midfield to try and cover the front three in a lot of ways.

Of course Messi can go back to RW and defend a bit more rather than coming centrally to look for ball so much. He is 30 not 40 and keeping the ball better in midfield means he has less reason to defend anyway.

Seem to me you are totally wrong what I define as a technical player.

 

[BBZ8800]

Lucho chose to sign Raki instead of Kroos says it all. He gave up the midfield to try and cover the front three in a lot of ways.

Of course Messi can go back to RW and defend a bit more rather than coming centrally to look for ball so much. He is 30 not 40 and keeping the ball better in midfield means he has less reason to defend anyway.

Seem to me you are totally wrong what I define as a technical player.

Lucho went with MSN, the most individualistic attack in Barca's history.
You can't bench them, you can't play anything other that shortpasses and dribbles with them.

Raki is somewhat strong, but he is slow.
Busi is tall, but very weak in general.
Iniesta is granny.
Rafinha, Roberto are of average strength.

In defense, our strongest guy is Pique who is often soft in duels and in the air.
Masch can't jump.
Alba is extremely short.
We don't even have a RB.

How can you even compare this to a pre-Pep Barca's?

Basically, our only strong guys are Umtiti, Pique, Raki and Suarez.
Other guys look like teenagers playing against men.

 

[JamDav1982]

Lucho went with MSN, the most individualistic attack in Barca's history.
You can't bench them, you can't play anything other that shortpasses and dribbles with them.

Raki is somewhat strong, but he is slow.
Busi is tall, but very weak in general.
Iniesta is granny.
Rafinha, Roberto are of average strength.

In defense, our strongest guy is Pique who is often soft in duels and in the air.
Masch can't jump.
Alba is extremely short.
We don't even have a RB.

How can you even compare this to a pre-Pep Barca's?

Basically, our only strong guys are Umtiti, Pique, Raki and Suarez.
Other guys look like teenagers playing against men.

It is not down to strength or height that Barca did not beat the top teams it was a poor midfield that could not support the front three and was too easily countered through.

All of that improves if you get better players on the ball who allow MSN to stay nearer the opposition area and can get better service to them.

That is what needs improved for me not going out and buying physical players who wont help with any of that.

Give a couple names you want Barca to go for.

 

[gasgas]

Lucho chose to sign Raki instead of Kroos says it all. He gave up the midfield to try and cover the front three in a lot of ways.

Of course Messi can go back to RW and defend a bit more rather than coming centrally to look for ball so much. He is 30 not 40 and keeping the ball better in midfield means he has less reason to defend anyway.

Seem to me you are totally wrong what I define as a technical player.

Rakitic wasn't known for physical strength in Sevilla.
He played as CAM behind the striker, he was their creative player,
He had 2 DMs defending behind him

If anything we bought him for the technical qualities that made him La Liga's best midfielder


Players like Bernardo Silva don't help you keep the ball.


Bernardo Silva alone losses the ball more than Iniesta and Rakitic combined (courtesy of who scored)

And then we have Neymar, and Suarez.


How does this guarantee Messi receiving the ball more?


Why then doesn't your definition include tempo control, stability, defensive skills and such similar skills?

 

[JamDav1982]

Rakitic wasn't known for physical strength in Sevilla.
He played as CAM behind the striker, he was their creative player,
He had 2 DMs defending behind him

If anything we bought him for the technical qualities that made him La Liga's best midfielder


Players like Bernardo Silva don't help you keep the ball.


Bernardo Silva alone losses the ball more than Iniesta and Rakitic combined (courtesy of who scored)

And then we have Neymar, and Suarez.


How does this guarantee Messi receiving the ball more?


Why then doesn't your definition include tempo control, stability, defensive skills and such similar skills?

Either Lucho did not realise the type of player he was getting with Rakitic or he chose him as different attributes to Kroos who has always been the ball dominant type midfielder.

Rakitic was never a great technical player or La Ligas best either.

 

[DAG_]

the idea behind rakitic transfer was to cover alves when going forward