Cesc Fàbregas

[barca7788]

That's my whole point. No need to blame a particular player when the system and tactical approach failed.

so true. they are just making cesc scapegoat. it was same against alexis too. some just didnt want to appreciate his talent.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

Cesc can not play in a system where messi plays. As simple as that.

That's insane, Cesc and Messi had brilliant chemistry, Cesc has assisted a ton of Messi's goals.

 

[xavi_the_Boss]

Neymar and Pique were the only good players vs Atleti.

In what match?
We played so many matches against them.In the 1st leg in the CL Iniesta definitly was one of the best if not the best Player on the pitch.

 

[Icarium]

That's insane, Cesc and Messi had brilliant chemistry, Cesc has assisted a ton of Messi's goals.

Yeah they have a good understanding both graduated la masia at same time. Plus most of them are in small matches. If you want Cesc of Arsenal and Cesc of Chelsea at barca we can't get it. His position and Messi position somewhat collide. Stats always does not say the whole picture. Cesc is world class midfielder but he did not live up to his name at barca. One more thing is Cesc likes to play in more direct system which is not so much suited to messi who is not a mobile 9 to pick up those through balls.

 

[DonAndres]

Where is this new obsession with Cesc coming from?

As Flavia said, there's no way in hell he'd be thriving in this formation. As a midfielder he'd be shunted out wide and have no space to play his signature through balls, doesn't have the discipline to be a constant defensive presence, and doesn't have the correct style to be central to our passing play (nor the awareness or mobility). As a CF he'd be incredibly easy to mark out by any team not called Cordoba, Levante, Granada, etc. due to his very limited skillset and lack of mobility. Plus I'd never push Messi to a less involved role just to accommodate freaking Cesc .

In the previous system, midfielders are the pillars of all our buildup play and dictate everything with a constant pass-move game. In this one, midfielders are the crucial support system both offensively and defensively so that the front line and full-backs have the freedom to work. Cesc fits neither of those categories and I sure as shit am not willing to go Masch-Busquets double pivot with Cesc in front and Messi pushed all the way up to striker just to fit him in *correctly*, our team might as well be fucking Chelsea at that point.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

I'd agree he didn't live up to his potential here (although I 100% would have kept him) but one of the best things about his time here was his connection with Messi. Sure, they'd occasionally get in each other's way, but overall they had really good chemistry.

 

[Iarwain]

His position and Messi position somewhat collide.

He plays in line with Matic at Chelsea. They can't collide even if he is at #10 in 4231 (presuming Messi as ST).

Stats always does not say the whole picture. Cesc is world class midfielder but he did not live up to his name at barca.

Neither did Iniesta (last few seasons). Maybe the problem does not lie in them, don't you think?

One more thing is Cesc likes to play in more direct system which is not so much suited to messi who is not a mobile 9 to pick up those through balls.

Actually, he assisted him many times with these deep through balls. And I certainly can't agree Messi is not mobile.

 

[hardyboy]

I wish he was still here

 

[Stric]

Cesc can not play in a system where messi plays. As simple as that.

Theoretically speaking, this would make sense, but in reality it's not true. Some of our best games under Pep came with the 3-4-3 when Messi and Cesc both played close together, and their partnership was outstanding. We can't afford to play a 3-4-3 most of the time, I'll admit that, but for a good part of 12-13 they also had a fantastic partnership when Cesc was playing LAM, and they were both racking goals and assists like crazy.

 

[Zangash]

He plays in line with Matic at Chelsea. They can't collide even if he is at #10 in 4231 (presuming Messi as ST).

You are suggesting we play a 4231 with Messi as a striker (Where would Neymar and Suarez play? Who cares? Cesc!). I surely shouldn't have to say much more than that.

Neither did Iniesta (last few seasons). Maybe the problem does not lie in them, don't you think?

I am really quite curious to know what a player must do to be considered having a good game, because from what I can tell from reading this conversation thus far, you think a player had a bad game if he didn't get any assists or goals, and if this is the case, it really invalidates your opinion.

Actually, he assisted him many times with these deep through balls.

Against whom? If they've played Barca B in a competitive game in the last 5 years or look to be set to play them in this current season they don't count, by the way.

And I certainly can't agree Messi is not mobile.

I can't agree on that either, and neither can anyone else, which is why I'm so confused at how you managed to comprehend what they were saying so poorly.

 

[Iarwain]

You are suggesting we play a 4231 with Messi as a striker (Where would Neymar and Suarez play? Who cares? Cesc!). I surely shouldn't have to say much more than that.

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was simply replying to a statement that Messi and Fabregas collide when they play together. This (him not complimenting Messi) is a nice example of pulling arguments out of your ass just to rationalize letting go of him.

I am really quite curious to know what a player must do to be considered having a good game, because from what I can tell from reading this conversation thus far, you think a player had a bad game if he didn't get any assists or goals, and if this is the case, it really invalidates your opinion.

I'm curious too. That treatment (no goal/assist = bad game) was very frequent in the case of Fabregas. Maybe you should ask the same question those who think Fabregas utterly failed in big games. Whatever criterias you use, there won't be significant difference between him and Iniesta.

Against whom? If they've played Barca B in a competitive game in the last 5 years or look to be set to play them in this current season they don't count, by the way.

I can't agree on that either, and neither can anyone else, which is why I'm so confused at how you managed to comprehend what they were saying so poorly.

I.e. Valencia or Leverkusen sound good? User I was responding to thinks Messi is not "mobile 9 to pick up those through balls". Watch Messi goal compilations and see that many he scores from long through balls (not necessarily Cescs).

 

[Schumi]

That's insane, Cesc and Messi had brilliant chemistry, Cesc has assisted a ton of Messi's goals.

Mostly in games we won 5-0 or something. Cesc could not deliver in the big matches for the most part, could not be patient in our build-up play and always badly deflated in the second and most crucial part of the season.

 

[Zangash]

I wasn't suggesting anything. I was simply replying to a statement that Messi and Fabregas collide when they play together. This (him not complimenting Messi) is a nice example of pulling arguments out of your ass just to rationalize letting go of him.

You, and this is a direct quote, said this:

He plays in line with Matic at Chelsea. They can't collide even if he is at #10 in 4231 (presuming Messi as ST).

If you have to explain things by comparing our formation to something dissimilar to our own to explain how they work together, chances are they don't actually work together. I won't get into whether or not I think they did, as that's not what I'm arguing, but that is such a structurally weak argument that I had to point it out.

I'm curious too. That treatment (no goal/assist = bad game) was very frequent in the case of Fabregas. Maybe you should ask the same question those who think Fabregas utterly failed in big games. Whatever criterias you use, there won't be significant difference between him and Iniesta.

Fabregas did fail utterly in big games. Slow as hell, lethargic in his passing and in front of goal, inability to beat his man, and a large tendency to vanish for large portions of the match, regardless of where he was played. Under Tito we frequently had him, Pedro, and Alexis on the pitch at the same time. That was like playing with 8 men... Iniesta, on the other hand, consistently beats his man, consistently sends balls to our forwards, and almost all of our play on his side goes through him, at all times. If you think Cesc played on the same level as Iniesta in his time here, you're the one who has a problem, not us.

I.e. Valencia or Leverkusen sound good? User I was responding to thinks Messi is not "mobile 9 to pick up those through balls". Watch Messi goal compilations and see that many he scores from long through balls (not necessarily Cescs).

Messi is not a 9, though.

 

[Iarwain]

If you have to explain things by comparing our formation to something dissimilar to our own to explain how they work together, chances are they don't actually work together. I won't get into whether or not I think they did, as that's not what I'm arguing, but that is such a structurally weak argument that I had to point it out.

I didn't compare formations, just stated for the sake of argument that he plays in line with Matic and that they wouldn't even collide in 4231 with Fabregas as #10. They don't collide. They didn't at Barca, they wouldn't at any given formation and system (assuming coach of any competence).

Fabregas did fail utterly in big games. Slow as hell, lethargic in his passing and in front of goal, inability to beat his man, and a large tendency to vanish for large portions of the match, regardless of where he was played.

You literally described Iniesta in almost every big game Barca/Spain lost. Every single instance you wrote here I'd attribute to recent Iniesta: slow, lethargic in his passing (ball hogging), tendency to vanish for large portions of the match, I'd add very weak shot and accuracy.

Come to think of it, you really have to dig deep to find a game he played worthy of his reputation (one of the best midfielders ever).

Also, I don't know why you bring up inability to beat his man in context of Fabregas. That was never his playing characteristic and general strenght, it's like saying Iniesta doesn't win headers or something like that.

Iniesta, on the other hand, consistently beats his man, consistently sends balls to our forwards, and almost all of our play on his side goes through him, at all times.

Whoa, high level delusion right here. He didn't do either of that consistently good, especially in big games. Yeah, we saw his brilliance occasionally, but you really have to be delusional to say he was consistently good (especially in big games).

If you think Cesc played on the same level as Iniesta in his time here, you're the one who has a problem, not us.

Yes, I do believe he played at least at the same level as Iniesta when he was at Barca. He did produce honey in last 3 seasons, while Iniesta really showed signs of decline (BOTH at club and international level) in last few seasons (not that he was bad generally, just not his level).

I'll say it again, my general point is that the reason Barca failed in big games is because the whole tactical approach was exposed, not because of Iniesta or Fabregas specifically.

 

[CesDel]

Yes, I do believe he played at least at the same level as Iniesta when he was at Barca. He did produce honey in last 3 seasons, while Iniesta really showed signs of decline (BOTH at club and international level) in last few seasons (not that he was bad generally, just not his level).

I have not been following this discussion, but this comment. Wow.

There was only one time that Fabregas played better than Iniesta and that was last season between August til december. But apart from that, Iniesta >>>> Fabregas. Those who saw us play, and not just read the match report/stats will know that is the truth.