Champions League

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Liverpool reached CL final in 2018 and won it in 2019, Tottenham reaching the final that year.
Utd won EL in 2017, Chelsea and Arsenal reached the EL final in 2019.
There you go. You have your cases.

But again, why the benchmark is a cup competition?
Luck of the draw plays a role as well. City drew Liverpool in 2018 and Tottenham in 2019 and went out in the quarters.
I bet against any other opponent they are through to the semis.
Plus the tons of luck factors that can shift a tie either way in a cup competition and not always the best team to go through (like Liverpool last season).

The benchmark is cup competitions because that's where teams from other leagues can play each other. Lol.

And what messi2140 and I are showing you aren't one offs. The situation gets even worse when you consider Sevilla's consistent Europa wins (and in the process beating Pool and other PL teams).
 

Birdy

Senior Member
The benchmark is cup competitions because that's where teams from other leagues can play each other. Lol.

And what messi2140 and I are showing you aren't one offs. The situation gets even worse when you consider Sevilla's consistent Europa wins (and in the process beating Pool and other PL teams).

They play in a cup format, and that's important because it blurs the judgment as only a league certifies who is the best over the course of the whole year and many games. RM got knocked out by a 4th division team in a cup this season.

I am showing you all the factors that tell you why you shouldn't use CL an EL as a benchmark,
and I haven't heard any counter-argument apart from 'that's the only competition they play against each other' which is not convincing enough for the reasons stated.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
RM got knocked out by a 4th division team in a cup this season.

As did Atletico last year and gone on to beat the behemoths of Merseyside that romped the league and literally the same team + 1 new defender is now doing the same thing this year but got rolled by Lyon. Who gives a fuck dude?
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
They play in a cup format, and that's important because it blurs the judgment as only a league certifies who is the best over the course of the whole year and many games. RM got knocked out by a 4th division team in a cup this season.

I am showing you all the factors that tell you why you shouldn't use CL an EL as a benchmark,
and I haven't heard any counter-argument apart from 'that's the only competition they play against each other' which is not convincing enough for the reasons stated.

The CL and EL are not definitive on who is best teams in that competition that year but over a period of time it is the best and only real way to compare those teams.

The league performance is more of a benchmark but you cant really compare teams from different leagues that way. The CL and Europa as a whole is the best way to compare although not perfect.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
The CL and EL are not definitive on who is best teams in that competition that year but over a period of time it is the best and only real way to compare those teams.

The league performance is more of a benchmark but you cant really compare teams from different leagues that way. The CL and Europa as a whole is the best way to compare although not perfect.

The 'best available' you mean, and as none other is available, hence it's the best.
Right. It's the best way, but still a faulty and not a good way...
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
They play in a cup format, and that's important because it blurs the judgment as only a league certifies who is the best over the course of the whole year and many games. RM got knocked out by a 4th division team in a cup this season.

I am showing you all the factors that tell you why you shouldn't use CL an EL as a benchmark,
and I haven't heard any counter-argument apart from 'that's the only competition they play against each other' which is not convincing enough for the reasons stated.

So, CONSISTENT results (over the span of 10 years) in the competition where teams from the top leagues directly compete against each other fails to be evidence in your world?

But, a hypothetical narrative that ranks teams based on the point standings WITHIN their league can be used as reliable evidence to make ACROSS league comparisons?

This is a level of insanity I am not equipped to deal with. Please carry on.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
So, CONSISTENT results (over the span of 10 years) in the competition where teams from the top leagues directly compete against each other fails to be evidence in your world?

But, a hypothetical narrative that ranks teams based on the point standings WITHIN their league can be used as reliable evidence to make ACROSS league comparisons?

This is a level of insanity I am not equipped to deal with. Please carry on.

See why you can't argue when you willingly distort the point of your interlocutor?
Who said ranking based on league points across different leagues?
Find me a quote where I said that.

I said the league format is the only certification that a team is the best.
Such league would be a European Super league where all teams play against each other home and away.
Something that does not exist. Therefore, we don't have the competition that would verify that.

This means you have to speculate which is the best league based on an overall assessment of
i) how competitive the respective domestic league is
ii) how good the top sides that participate in it are
iii) how good the football played in that league overall is.

Whether they beat teams of another league in a cup competition can be from peripheral to irrelevant.
City is like a million miles better than RM this season (and the last 3 seasons). IF they get knocked out against RM next month, it proves shit about RM being better than them.
You can understand yourself the reasons why.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
See why you can't argue when you willingly distort the point of your interlocutor?
Who said ranking based on league points across different leagues?
Find me a quote where I said that.

I said the league format is the only certification that a team is the best.
Such league would be a European Super league where all teams play against each other home and away.
Something that does not exist. Therefore, we don't have the competition that would verify that.

This means you have to speculate which is the best league based on an overall assessment of
i) how competitive the respective domestic league is
ii) how good the top sides that participate in it are
iii) how good the football played in that league overall is.

Whether they beat teams of another league in a cup competition can be from peripheral to irrelevant.
City is like a million miles better than RM this season (and the last 3 seasons). IF they get knocked out against RM next month, it proves shit about RM being better than them.
You can understand yourself the reasons why.

Your entire counter-argument presents a hypothetical scenario (like City v RM this season) which would be termed as a one-off.

Jamdav, messi2140, and I have repeatedly tried to tell you our argument is based on the sum of LL's results in Europe over 10 years. That includes maybe 30 KO ties between LL and teams from other leagues.

European super league would be even better than CL/Europa. Agreed. From the currently EXISTING options, long term CL and Europa results are infinitely better than your "criteria".
 

stb_1

Senior Member
Bayern=City>>>>>>>>Liverpool>PSG>Madrid>Chelsea>>>Dortmund>>>Porto

Chelsea for sure right now are better than Liverpool without Van Dijk and their other CBs.

Chelsea probably 3rd best team left right now. Their squad is insane and they have a good manager now.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
Your entire counter-argument presents a hypothetical scenario (like City v RM this season) which would be termed as a one-off.

Jamdav, messi2140, and I have repeatedly tried to tell you our argument is based on the sum of LL's results in Europe over 10 years. That includes maybe 30 KO ties between LL and teams from other leagues.

European super league would be even better than CL/Europa. Agreed. From the currently EXISTING options, long term CL and Europa results are infinitely better than your "criteria".

First of all, why 10 and not 20 or 30 or 40 years? Who decides the span?

But most importantly: can you prove that the so called 'sum of LL's results in Europe over 10 years' is not made of one-offs?
Probably not...
Can you prove that the sum does not include many head to head ties of uneven balance as well? Like a tie between a top tier team (1-3 in Spain) vs a 2nd tier team in England (4-7th)?
Probably not again...

let's see if in a given span, what you say makes any sense:

Recall a little bit the knock-out head to head in CL and EL the last 2 seasons in particular:

19/20:
Liverpool - Atleti -> one-off (Liverpool miles better)
City - RM -> City through (and better team overall by miles)
SEvilla - Utd -> one-off (Utd unlucky not to go through and better ream than Sevilla overall last season)
Sevilla - Wovles -> Sevilla through, and better?
Wolves - Espanyol -> Wolves through and better
18/19:
Barca-Liverpool-> you know
Barca - Utd -> Barca better and went through
Arsenal - Valencia (EL) -> Arsenal through and better

And this season we don't know yet, in the group stage a deficient Chelsea thrased Sevilla 0-4.

So, the last 3 years at least, if someone uses your 'sum of results' criterion will conclude that LL is on par with EPL, as 4 times English sides beat Spanish sides, and the rest vice versa.
Whereas, in reality, you had Spanish teams being better than the English opponent in only 2 ties out of 8, and in those cases you had ties of uneven balance (the best Spanish team playing the 6th English team or the 4th Spanish team playing the 10th English team. Which means that those ties are not indicative at all of the level between the leagues)
while in the rest of the ties either there was an one-off where a better English side got knocked out, or the English side went through (not in an 'one-off' fashion)

Therefore, you have not proven really anything: The sum of "LL vs EPL" head to head ties only blurred the reality of EPL being country miles better than LL in 18/19 and 19/20.
Plus, you see how many one-offs you can have in a cup competition.

The prestige of CL will not save your argument
Cup competition success is a bad metric, and 'it's the only available' cry will not cut it.
 
Last edited:

Home of Barca Fans

Top