Copa America 2020

[KingLeo10]

well, if you can fail as much as messi has, year after year, then sign me up. if barca signs me ill also:
1) not score against Real
2) miss penalties
3) not score decisive CL KO goals

ill happily do that, get paid a ton, and somehow be called goat? sweet

I'm not going to indulge you on this since you've already devolved to an extreme take when I made a very reasonable take pointing out that there are managers and players like Pep, SAF, Clough, Michels, Cruyff, or R9 who have less CL accolades compared to Messi and are respected as GOAT tier.

When you can start to understand this, then we can have a conversation.

 

[BarcaOG]

The answers could be a bit more friendly though.....

there there my friend...this is the Internet...

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

there there my friend...this is the Internet...

Yeah

 

[BarcaOG]

I'm not going to indulge you on this since you've already devolved to an extreme take when I made a very reasonable take pointing out that there are managers and players like Pep, SAF, Clough, Michels, Cruyff, or R9 who have less CL accolades compared to Messi and are respected as GOAT tier.

When you can start to understand this, then we can have a conversation.

yes, messi is an all time great. no doubt. but he has taken too many Ls in the last decade to really deserve the goat title. there is no field/sport in which there isnt a correlation between performance at the highest level of competition and status. most often, this involves winning the relevant trophy/prize that is considered the highest honour. messis score on that front hasnt been great for many years now.

 

[BarcaOG]

anyway, we dont have to argue about this all im saying is that messi has underachieved relative to his supposed status as the goat, both for argentina and for barcelona. i dont expect everyone to agree, least of all barcelona fans, but thats okay

 

[KingLeo10]

yes, messi is an all time great. no doubt. but he has taken too many Ls in the last decade to really deserve the goat title. there is no field/sport in which there isnt a correlation between performance at the highest level of competition and status. most often, this involves winning the relevant trophy/prize that is considered the highest honour. messis score on that front hasnt been great for many years now.

How is SAF a GOAT then with 2 CL wins and 2 CL losses (to Messi/Barca no less) and only 4 appearances in 26 years. Apply the same standards to everyone. If the answer is domestic dominance, Messi has 10 LL in 15 years too.

There are years where SAF exited CL in group stages. Imagine that.

 

[BarcaOG]

How is SAF a GOAT then with 2 CL wins and 2 CL losses (to Messi/Barca no less) and only 4 appearances in 26 years. Apply the same standards to everyone. If the answer is domestic dominance, Messi has 10 LL in 15 years too.

There are years where SAF exited CL in group stages. Imagine that.

messi is a player and saf was a manager. the same standards cant be applied to both because its an entirely different role. the standards for what constitutes a goat manager are: continued success after 'cycles' of players wax and wane. on the other hand a player only has one cycle, or peak: so the standard is, what did they achieve during their peak years? messi has achieved a great deal, especially domestically, but his record (as far as titles/collective achievements, not goal stats) isnt really outrageous, especially considering he is supposed to be the goat. multiple finals lost with ARG, including missing decisive PKs? not a goat. seedorf, maldini, CR, and a bunch of others have more CLs than messi. obviously messi is better than them--yet he couldnt translate that into titles. not a goat. furthermore, messi really only inspired three sides to a CL. he has a 2006 medal, but that was not his barca. that was ronaldinho/etoo/deco/and puyol's barca. CR on the other hand was the main star for each of his five CL triumphs.

there is also no GOAT-tier contender who has suffered as many successive humiliations as messi. and on and on and on. too many failures. not a goat.

 

[BarcaOG]

i have no doubt that messi is the La Liga/Spain GOAT, but the highest levels of competition in football are the CL and international trophies. in those competitions, messis record isnt extraordinary by any means

 

[KingLeo10]

messi is a player and saf was a manager. the same standards cant be applied to both because its an entirely different role. the standards for what constitutes a goat manager are: continued success after 'cycles' of players wax and wane. on the other hand a player only has one cycle, or peak: so the standard is, what did they achieve during their peak years? messi has achieved a great deal, especially domestically, but his record (as far as titles/collective achievements, not goal stats) isnt really outrageous, especially considering he is supposed to be the goat. multiple finals lost with ARG, including missing decisive PKs? not a goat. seedorf, maldini, CR, and a bunch of others have more CLs than messi. obviously messi is better than them--yet he couldnt translate that into titles. not a goat. furthermore, messi really only inspired three sides to a CL. he has a 2006 medal, but that was not his barca. that was ronaldinho/etoo/deco/and puyol's barca. CR on the other hand was the main star for each of his five CL triumphs.

there is also no GOAT-tier contender who has suffered as many successive humiliations as messi. and on and on and on. too many failures. not a goat.

I would list the records but here's people who know a lot more than you and their assessment.

And a bonus Messi v CR7: Guess who wins

GOAT tier, unquestionably. But you can keep your tirade and ignore the flaws or "humiliations" of everyone else and make blanket statements.

 

[Morten]

i have no doubt that messi is the La Liga/Spain GOAT, but the highest levels of competition in football are the CL and international trophies. in those competitions, messis record isnt extraordinary by any means

I dont count that one in the same way, you dont choose your nationality, while on the club level its a more even playing field.
Take Haaland, for one, he is never going to accomplish anything much at the NT, it will be unfair to compare his NT career to Mbappe.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I would list the records but here's people who know a lot more than you and their assessment.

And a bonus Messi v CR7: Guess who wins

GOAT tier, unquestionably. But you can keep your tirade and ignore the flaws or "humiliations" of everyone else and make blanket statements.

Why its so important for you that everyone hails Messi as the GOAT ? At the end of the day its opinions, some people will say Messi, others Maradona, others Ronaldo and so on.

 

[KingLeo10]

Why its so important for you that everyone hails Messi as the GOAT ? At the end of the day its opinions, some people will say Messi, others Maradona, others Ronaldo and so on.

I said GOAT tier. Not GOAT.

And lol, do you really want to pose me that when one can't even criticize CR7's hairstyle without you coming to that thread in 4 seconds.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I said GOAT tier. Not GOAT.

And lol, do you really want to pose me that when one can't even criticize CR7's hairstyle without you coming to that thread in 4 seconds.

Come on dude dont need always become so personally against me, i have just understood it wrong....

 

[CatalinR10]

Messi is the best GOAT there ever was and ever will be


don't even @me with other players who have 50% of Messi's talent and 200% more luck.

 

[BarcaOG]

ill be convinced when he starts scoring decisive penalties consistently, wins anything with argentina, and takes barca to another CL. if not, then well always be a world class player for me, but far and away from the goat. that label has to mean something.