Cr150

[KingLeo10]

If I'm completely honest, there is an element of bandwagoning in those that try to belittle what Messi has already achieved because of the feats CR7 is putting out. You can't erase past achievements.

Case in point, the argument Messi is not a winner or can't make the difference in big CL games.

Patently untrue, I'd argue that Messi's 2011 CL KO and 2015 CL KO performances are right up there with CR7's best ones in 2014 and 2017. 2011 Messi being not only a goalscorer in big KO ties (United, Real Madrid, Arsenal etc.) but also being a supreme playmaker and delivering Mozart level genius.

The admirable thing about CR7 - and I dislike him intensely - is his absolute motivation and desire to win (yes, it's to satisfy his own ego but it also helps teams W). I always laughed at his pettiness and obsession with meaningless hat tricks against the Getafes and Espanyols. At some point (2016), he wisened up, and began planning his season to peak in March - June, because like it or not (fair or not), the output in CL there is what steals the headlines. Messi will always be the greater footballer for his ability, but his decision making and his lack of ruthlessness has allowed this duel to become virtually even achievement wise (I don't count Euro 2016 final W for CR7 as he didn't even play in it). Messi needs to show ruthlessness and fire and not only lead us as far as he can in CL, but also crush Juve H2H if we do run into them.

 

[mobster_1930]

Let's put something intro perspective. Messi has 13 major titles in his career - 9 La Ligas and 4 CLs. I really don't care about copas, supercopas etc... We all know what it really counts. Out of these 13 titles, he was undeniably a focal point in 10 of them. He had combined 24 apps in 04/05 and 05/06 in La Liga with 7 goals and 7 apps in 2005/06 CL with one goal. Sure, his performance in semis against Chelsea was incredible, but it was Ronaldinho who was face of the team during CL run in 2005/06.

CR, on another hand has 11 major titles in his career - 5 domestic titles (3 with ManU and 2 with RMA) , 5 CLs and one Euro - he was a focal point in all of them.

Also, we all need to be honest - CL is more valuable trophy than League. It really is. I'm just saying that, as of now CR is on his way to have a more impressive trophy cabinet than Messi. I don't really care if RMA during this past three years had better players or Juventus is a best of a team, but Juventus would be eliminated from CL as of now if it was some other guy playing instead of Ronaldo and I'm pretty sure RMA would have won at most one CL during this 5 years. Quite simply, Ronaldo is CL GOAT, no question about it.

 

[Leo_Messi]

My sole criticism of Messi throughout his career has been the mental aspect and him never being a leader. That and his stubbornness. Instead of playing those relatively unimportant (since we tend to win the league and CDR almost every single season, lol, on curse to win our 8th league in 11 seasons, talk about insane dominance of the best league in the world in that time period bar none) La Liga games before important CL ties (knockout stage) he should be resting as C. Ronaldo has been doing since 2016. When he was younger than the current Messi.

Messi, I suspect, is also a totally different personality. After winning this much this early (he had pretty much already won what C. Ronaldo has won in his entire career as a 24 year old, give and take obviously) and leading most individual honors (he still does) AND on top of that getting 3 kids, it must be hard even for a serial winner like him to be as motivated as earlier. That and his 3 finals loses with a cursed Argentina (since the early 1990's) probably had a negative impact on him. In particular losing that WC that would have cemented (without any doubt) his legacy as the sole GOAT.

That and getting older. C. Ronaldo is not getting smaller despite getting older. He is in much bette shape too so his jumping power has not really diminished. As I wrote earlier, it is much, much easier to stop Messi when the entire opposition is defending as a block in their penalty box. You can't dribble 10 players, can't outrun them etc. So what is left? Mostly crosses or shots form the outside (where ironically Messi has been the leader in Europe for several seasons in a row). However crossing is by far the easiest and most common way to score. Just take a look how often goals are scored from standard situations in the CL in recent years or the World Cup last summer if in doubt.

That and C. Ronaldo never competing on all 3 fronts each season as Messi has been doing for 10+ years hence why never winning the treble or coming close.

Just different players. Yesterday won't change anything in the wider picture. At least it should not. Let us await how the CL unfolds this season and who actually ends up winning it and who the best performer (s) will be collectively and individually before making any lasting conclusions.

Let's put something intro perspective. Messi has 13 major titles in his career - 9 La Ligas and 4 CLs. I really don't care about copas, supercopas etc... We all know what it really counts. Out of these 13 titles, he was undeniably a focal point in 10 of them. He had combined 24 apps in 04/05 and 05/06 in La Liga with 7 goals and 7 apps in 2005/06 CL with one goal. Sure, his performance in semis against Chelsea was incredible, but it was Ronaldinho who was face of the team during CL run in 2005/06.

CR, on another hand has 11 major titles in his career - 5 domestic titles (3 with ManU and 2 with RMA) , 5 CLs and one Euro - he was a focal point in all of them.

Also, we all need to be honest - CL is more valuable trophy than League. It really is. I'm just saying that, as of now CR is on his way to have a more impressive trophy cabinet than Messi. I don't really care if RMA during this past three years had better players or Juventus is a best of a team, but Juventus would be eliminated from CL as of now if it was some other guy playing instead of Ronaldo and I'm pretty sure RMA would have won at most one CL during this 5 years. Quite simply, Ronaldo is CL GOAT, no question about it.

Messi is almost 3 years younger yet has better individual honors (trophies won) and much better individual statistics. No amount of cherrypicking is ever going to change this.

Messi played a bigger role when Argentina won the Olympic football tournament in China in 2008 than C. Ronaldo did during that joke of a EURO championship in 2016. A final that he played no part in other than for 10-15 minutes or how long it was.

CL is more valuable due to the hype it gets. Nothing else. If there was no hype there would be zero prestige and zero money. In reality it is a knockout tournament with 7 games (the final included) where draws are completely arbitrary and you can have a very difficult run like we had in 2015 where we only faced champions in the CL knockout stage or a run like RM had in 2016 where they only played against bums outside of Atlético in the final that they barely won over in the penalty shootout.

You mean the same Juventus that made an even more impressive comeback against RM (with Ronaldo on their team) less than 1 year ago, a much better team, AWAY from home, and almost eliminating RM if not for that penalty kick in the last minute? That Juventus?

Yes, and how many league titles and CL's would we have won without Messi? Same logic applies the other away around.

So you want to throw the league and CdR (85% of all games during the season) and do a RM and only concentrate on the CL while having insane luck as well which we never have? Since nobody gives a crap about anything else than the CL why even bother with the league, CdR, Supercopa de España, European Super Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup? We should only focus on those 7 games (CL knockout stage as every elite club is ALWAYS qualifying from the group stage which is mostly a waste of time) each season from now on. I am serious. Apparently this is where football is going. Winning 8 out of 11 league titles in the strongest (by far) and most prestigious and historically most successful (in Europe) league in the world, in La Liga against the most successful team of the 20th century, is obviously a lesser feat than just winning the CL once.

If this is how modern-day football fans look at things, where most of the money and prestige is, we should only concentrate on the CL from now on. Those 7 games only as the CL group stage is a joke. What are we exactly waiting for?

Let us hire Deschamps and buy players like Pogba, Mbappé and such players. Quick, physically strong, can defend and perfect to use as counter attacking players. Might even buy Bale too. He is quick and good in the air too. Flood the penalty box with 30-40 crosses each game. Bound to score twice as Juve did yesterday. Why not if it is all about the CL?

 

[Raketa10]

My sole criticism of Messi throughout his career has been the mental aspect and him never being a leader. That and his stubbornness. Instead of playing those relatively unimportant (since we tend to win the league and CDR almost every single season, lol, on curse to win our 8th league in 11 seasons, talk about insane dominance of the best league in the world in that time period bar none) La Liga games before important CL ties (knockout stage) he should be resting as C. Ronaldo has been doing since 2016. When he was younger than the current Messi.

Messi, I suspect, is also a totally different personality. After winning this much this early (he had pretty much already won what C. Ronaldo has won in his entire career as a 24 year old, give and take obviously) and leading most individual honors (he still does) AND on top of that getting 3 kids, it must be hard even for a serial winner like him to be as motivated as earlier. That and his 3 finals loses with a cursed Argentina (since the early 1990's) probably had a negative impact on him. In particular losing that WC that would have cemented (without any doubt) his legacy as the sole GOAT.

That and getting older. C. Ronaldo is not getting smaller despite getting older. He is in much bette shape too so his jumping power has not really diminished. As I wrote earlier, it is much, much easier to stop Messi when the entire opposition is defending as a block in their penalty box. You can't dribble 10 players, can't outrun them etc. So what is left? Mostly crosses or shots form the outside (where ironically Messi has been the leader in Europe for several seasons in a row). However crossing is by far the easiest and most common way to score. Just take a look how often goals are scored from standard situations in the CL in recent years or the World Cup last summer if in doubt.

That and C. Ronaldo never competing on all 3 fronts each season as Messi has been doing for 10+ years hence why never winning the treble or coming close.

Just different players. Yesterday won't change anything in the wider picture. At least it should not. Let us await how the CL unfolds this season and who actually ends up winning it and who the best performer (s) will be collectively and individually before making any lasting conclusions.



Messi is almost 3 years younger yet has better individual honors (trophies won) and much better individual statistics. No amount of cherrypicking is ever going to change this.

Messi played a bigger role when Argentina won the Olympic football tournament in China in 2008 than C. Ronaldo did during that joke of a EURO championship in 2016. A final that he played no part in other than for 10-15 minutes or how long it was.

CL is more valuable due to the hype it gets. Nothing else. If there was no hype there would be zero prestige and zero money. In reality it is a knockout tournament with 7 games (the final included) where draws are completely arbitrary and you can have a very difficult run like we had in 2015 where we only faced champions in the CL knockout stage or a run like RM had in 2016 where they only played against bums outside of Atlético in the final that they barely won over in the penalty shootout.

You mean the same Juventus that made an even more impressive comeback against RM (with Ronaldo on their team) less than 1 year ago, a much better team, AWAY from home, and almost eliminating RM if not for that penalty kick in the last minute? That Juventus?

Yes, and how many league titles and CL's would we have won without Messi? Same logic applies the other away around.

So you want to throw the league and CdR (85% of all games during the season) and do a RM and only concentrate on the CL while having insane luck as well which we never have? Since nobody gives a crap about anything else than the CL why even bother with the league, CdR, Supercopa de España, European Super Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup? We should only focus on those 7 games (CL knockout stage as every elite club is ALWAYS qualifying from the group stage which is mostly a waste of time) each season from now on. I am serious. Apparently this is where football is going. Winning 8 out of 11 league titles in the strongest (by far) and most prestigious and historically most successful (in Europe) league in the world, in La Liga against the most successful team of the 20th century, is obviously a lesser feat than just winning the CL once.

I have to correct you, Messi played 4 finals with Argentina and lost 4 of them but he lead them to finals while Ronaldo won one title with Portugal but he didn't even play in the final so for me Messi has also clear advantage here.

 

[soul24rage]

Let's put something intro perspective. Messi has 13 major titles in his career - 9 La Ligas and 4 CLs. I really don't care about copas, supercopas etc... We all know what it really counts. Out of these 13 titles, he was undeniably a focal point in 10 of them. He had combined 24 apps in 04/05 and 05/06 in La Liga with 7 goals and 7 apps in 2005/06 CL with one goal. Sure, his performance in semis against Chelsea was incredible, but it was Ronaldinho who was face of the team during CL run in 2005/06.

CR, on another hand has 11 major titles in his career - 5 domestic titles (3 with ManU and 2 with RMA) , 5 CLs and one Euro - he was a focal point in all of them.

Also, we all need to be honest - CL is more valuable trophy than League. It really is. I'm just saying that, as of now CR is on his way to have a more impressive trophy cabinet than Messi. I don't really care if RMA during this past three years had better players or Juventus is a best of a team, but Juventus would be eliminated from CL as of now if it was some other guy playing instead of Ronaldo and I'm pretty sure RMA would have won at most one CL during this 5 years. Quite simply, Ronaldo is CL GOAT, no question about it.

I agree on all your other points but there's no way in telling that Juve wouldn't have come back vs ATM without CR7. Juve were capable to comeback as they almost shown vs RM that had CR7 last season losing 3-0 at home.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Kudos to Ronaldo, he just can't stop scoring goals in CL knock-out rounds. He steps up when it matters.

Morata - goals disallowed

Ramos - red card

Ronaldo - CL goals

 

[Leo_Messi]

I have to correct you, Messi played 4 finals with Argentina and lost 4 of them but he lead them to finals while Ronaldo won one title with Portugal but he didn't even play in the final so for me Messi has also clear advantage here.

Correct. Reaching the World Cup final alone is a bigger accomplishment than anything C. Ronaldo has done. Let alone reaching 3 Copa América finals and wining player of the tournament twice if I am not wrong or at least once. Argentina's Messi (2014-16) team is one of the most underrated out there. Reaching 3 finals in a row is a MONUMENTAL task. Barely losing all 3 of them too. Should have won at least one of them if not 2 (could have won all 3) but this is football. The only team sport where clearly worse teams can win against clearly superior teams. Messi has been better for his country than C. Ronaldo has ever been. Just like Messi has been better when it comes to club football by every measurement while being almost 3 years younger.

Anyway I don't really care about this Messi/CR7 rivalry at all. My username is just a username. Nothing else. However rewriting history and making it sound like C. Ronaldo is lightyears ahead of Messi in terms of accomplishments (when he is not even ahead) is laughable. We are on curse for a third triplete in 10 seasons. No other club in history has won it more than once. If we get our shit together in the CL as we have the best team on paper and when we click we are the best team out there. All in our hands. Juve and C. Ronaldo have won jackshit in the CL. They knocked out our nemesis in the CL and bogey team (2014, 2016) and a younger team that was playing to reach the CL-final that will be played at their home (Wanda). It was always a win-win situation. We will have bigger chances against Juve and even more so a Juve with Ronaldo. Messi and the team would not need any motivation.

 

[Raketa10]

Also let's go with head to head games:



So where is that superiority? People are overacting as usual. There is only one field in which Ronaldo is superior to Messi and that's social media.

 

[ebc_99]

Ronaldo's biggest advantage he has had is that he has played under great managers for almost his entire career, Ferguson, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Allegri and maybe Zidane but the jury is still out on him. Messi had Guardiola for 4 years and a bunch of clowns the rest of the time. Swap managers and Ronaldo's trophy capinet wouldn't be half the size.

 

[Devils]

[tw]1105593238147252224[/tw]

Incredible.

The Michael Jordan of this generation.

Viva Ronaldo!

 

[Hardy]

I agree on all your other points but there's no way in telling that Juve wouldn't have come back vs ATM without CR7. Juve were capable to comeback as they almost shown vs RM that had CR7 last season losing 3-0 at home.

scoring 3 goals against Atletico is not the same as scoring 3 goals against Real (without Sergio Ramos), think about that Juventus in all previous meetings against Atletico scored exactly zero goals, Ronaldo is also the only player able to score an hattrick against Atletico since Simeone is their manager and he did it 4 times !!!

Guys, I understand everything but Ronaldo yesterday did something special once again, tap in, headers, penalty, who cares, like scoring 2 headers against that defence and Oblak is the most easiest thing in football lol. Huge credit to him and move on.

 

[Luftstalag14]

There is really no need to downplay what Ronaldo was able to accomplish yesterday. He scored three goals against Atletico in a crucial CL know-out game that brought Juventus back to the CL.

You can say whatever you want about him (a diver, a diva, a narcissist etc.) but he never stops trying and fighting.

 

[soul24rage]

scoring 3 goals against Atletico is not the same as scoring 3 goals against Real (without Sergio Ramos), think about that Juventus in all previous meetings against Atletico scored exactly zero goals, Ronaldo is also the only player able to score an hattrick against Atletico since Simeone is their manager and he did it 4 times !!!

Guys, I understand everything but Ronaldo yesterday did something special once again, tap in, headers, penalty, who cares, like scoring 2 headers against that defence and Oblak is the most easiest thing in football lol. Huge credit to him and move on.

Dortmund scored 4 goals against ATM this season, RM scored 3 goals against ATM this season. Hell even Girona scored 3 goals vs ATM You're telling me Juve would have 0% chance of making a comeback? Their defence is not as great as say 2014.

I'm taking nothing from CR7. He was awesome last night. But this undermining of Juve sounds like they are a pub team without cr7.

 

[BBZ8800]

I think you answered one part of the dilemma and totally missed the obvious.

Ronaldo role is much simpler than Messi, he is closer to the box or on the receiving end, while (the point you missed) Messi is part of the midfield who drop deep to initiate the attack and create chances, all balls go through him. But doesn't stop there, he is also on the receiving end too of the initial build-up he starts. Do you see how difficult his job in comparison to CR7? This wasn't the case when Xavi and Iniesta were part of this team, and Messi was more involved in the final third because he has top passers and creators in the midfield.

Now we have players like Rakitic, Roberto and Vidal in the midfield who are more musclehead workhorses, barely create anything and their main duty is a defensive role.

It's been tough for Messi since Pep, Xavi and Iniesta left the club and without proper long term planning and replacement.

Of course this one part of the issue.

This part about Xavi and Iniesta.
Well, to some extent, you are saying that Messi can bring trophies ONLY when his team, coach and all conditions are perfect.

This is slightly simplified because there are 100s of factors, but to some extent:
1. when team is perfect and when you have the best coach:
Messi, Xavi, Iniesta + Pep= Messi can win
CR7, Modric, Kroos + Zidane=CR7 can win

Fine, they are equal here.

But, CR7 is able to turn average or NOT perfect teams into champions with his style of play and motivation.
You say that we have Busi, Arthur, Rakitic today.
CR7 won a CL with Man Utd in 2008 with 34 years old Scholes, Rakitic-Carrick and Owen Heargraves as 4 midfielders.

CR7 managed to win Euro 2018 with Portugal with these players:
Patricio, Cedric, Pepe, Fonte, Guerreiro - W. Carvalho, Renato Sanches, Adrien Silva, Mario, Nani and CR7.
Only Pepe and Nani played in best clubs, and Nani was always bang average.
Are you saying that this group of players is superior to Messi's teammates at Barca?

Or yesterday for Juve.
His midfielders were Emre Can, Matouidi and Pjanic.
Only Pjanic is a good midfielder.
Are Can and Matouidi suddenly world class players?
Or Mandzukic and Bernardeschi in attack?

But again, do you know what is one of the key differences in these 50:50 tight matches?
When your team sucks and is not perfect, do you know what is the simplest way to get the ball into a box and into danger areas?
This:

On the other hand, this is how 90% of Messi's matches against Atletico, Juve, Bayern look like in CL knockout rounds:
He is dropping deep.
He is running with the ball from the half line towards the box.
He always have 2-3-4 physically strong defenders around him who are kicking him, pushing him, pulling him, tackling him.
He literally needs to dribble past 4 Juve's defenders and execute a 120% perfect/lucky shot to actually score a goal in a CL KO rounds.
It is really no surprise that he has 1 or 2 goals in the last 12-13 quarters, semis and CL finals.
And IIRC, he didn't score a single goal in KO rounds on world cups in his whole career, since he is neutralized in exactly the same fashion in every single match against bigger teams (outside of La Liga).

Imo, it is way harder to win with 100% Barca's DNA style.
You need to have:
1. a perfect coach
2. perfect players
3. no injuries, rested players, perfect conditions
And even then, with Pep, we couldn't win (with the best team ever) against Chelsea in 2009, Inter 2011, Chelsea 2012.
Even Barca's best team ever, whenever they faced a classical physical (and yet technical) European team=struggled to win.
Then how are you expecting today, Barca with a weaker coach, with weaker players, with older players to win with our style, which is in a CL=easy to neutralize.

OR vs Roma last season. Cule4life will say that this was all on Valverde.
But seriously, look at HOW Messi plays outside of La Liga: he has no clue how play/outsmart European teams anymore.
He is dropping way too deep.
He has 2 strong/fast defenders on his back all the time.
He needs to dribble past 4 players to get anywhere near the box.
He will ALWAYS dribble through the middle and shoot from the edge of the box, and everyone knows that.
He will rarely play counters and will never head the ball.
I mean, our only current attacking options are: pass to Dembele and let him run with the ball.
The way how our team is built around Messi is horrible. And yet, he is so easy to neutralize by big teams. Thus, we are also neutralized and without any other options.

One more time, a match against Roma away.
For a second, let's forget about Ernie, and just look at Messi and 100s of things which he is doing wrong against these European opponents OVER and OVER.

Case in point, the argument Messi is not a winner or can't make the difference in big CL games.

Patently untrue, I'd argue that Messi's 2011 CL KO and 2015 CL KO performances are right up there with CR7's best ones in 2014 and 2017. 2011 Messi being not only a goalscorer in big KO ties (United, Real Madrid, Arsenal etc.) but also being a supreme playmaker and delivering Mozart level genius.

Matches from 2011 and 2012, right?
Can you name more than 5 big matches, OUTSIDE La Liga, both in a CL and world cups, where Messi played like a Goat in key matches and decided a winner in CR7's style?

In the last 6-7 years, CR7 probably decided 20-30 big matches for RM and Portugal all by himself.
Again, did Messi do that more than 5 times AFTER Pep?

It can't be only about bad coaches.
Messi lost motivation. Messi lost some pace.
He is easier to neutralize. He can score only in one way etc.

A sad truth is:
In the last few years CR7 was a bigger clutch in big games than Messi.
And CR7 can turn NOT so perfect team into a winning team.
While this older, lazy Messi can deliver CL trophies ONLY if a whole team is working perfectly.

 

[KingLeo10]

This part about Xavi and Iniesta.
Well, to some extent, you are saying that Messi can bring trophies ONLY when his team, coach and all conditions are perfect.

This is slightly simplified because there are 100s of factors, but to some extent:
1. when team is perfect and when you have the best coach:
Messi, Xavi, Iniesta + Pep= Messi can win
CR7, Modric, Kroos + Zidane=CR7 can win

Fine, they are equal here.

But, CR7 is able to turn average or NOT perfect teams into champions with his style of play and motivation.
You say that we have Busi, Arthur, Rakitic today.
CR7 won a CL with Man Utd in 2008 with 34 years old Scholes, Rakitic-Carrick and Owen Heargraves as 4 midfielders.

CR7 managed to win Euro 2018 with Portugal with these players:
Patricio, Cedric, Pepe, Fonte, Guerreiro - W. Carvalho, Renato Sanches, Adrien Silva, Mario, Nani and CR7.
Only Pepe and Nani played in best clubs, and Nani was always bang average.
Are you saying that this group of players is superior to Messi's teammates at Barca?

Or yesterday for Juve.
His midfielders were Emre Can, Matouidi and Pjanic.
Only Pjanic is a good midfielder.
Are Can and Matouidi suddenly world class players?
Or Mandzukic and Bernardeschi in attack?

But again, do you know what is one of the key differences in these 50:50 tight matches?
When your team sucks and is not perfect, do you know what is the simplest way to get the ball into a box and into danger areas?
This:

On the other hand, this is how 90% of Messi's matches against Atletico, Juve, Bayern look like in CL knockout rounds:
He is dropping deep.
He is running with the ball from the half line towards the box.
He always have 2-3-4 physically strong defenders around him who are kicking him, pushing him, pulling him, tackling him.
He literally needs to dribble past 4 Juve's defenders and execute a 120% perfect/lucky shot to actually score a goal in a CL KO rounds.
It is really no surprise that he has 1 or 2 goals in the last 12-13 quarters, semis and CL finals.
And IIRC, he didn't score a single goal in KO rounds on world cups in his whole career, since he is neutralized in exactly the same fashion in every single match against bigger teams (outside of La Liga).

Imo, it is way harder to win with 100% Barca's DNA style.
You need to have:
1. a perfect coach
2. perfect players
3. no injuries, rested players, perfect conditions
And even then, with Pep, we couldn't win (with the best team ever) against Chelsea in 2009, Inter 2011, Chelsea 2012.
Even Barca's best team ever, whenever they faced a classical physical (and yet technical) European team=struggled to win.
Then how are you expecting today, Barca with a weaker coach, with weaker players, with older players to win with our style, which is in a CL=easy to neutralize.

OR vs Roma last season. Cule4life will say that this was all on Valverde.
But seriously, look at HOW Messi plays outside of La Liga: he has no clue how play/outsmart European teams anymore.
He is dropping way too deep.
He has 2 strong/fast defenders on his back all the time.
He needs to dribble past 4 players to get anywhere near the box.
He will ALWAYS dribble through the middle and shoot from the edge of the box, and everyone knows that.
He will rarely play counters and will never head the ball.
I mean, our only current attacking options are: pass to Dembele and let him run with the ball.
The way how our team is built around Messi is horrible. And yet, he is so easy to neutralize by big teams. Thus, we are also neutralized and without any other options.

One more time, a match against Roma away.
For a second, let's forget about Ernie, and just look at Messi and 100s of things which he is doing wrong against these European opponents OVER and OVER.

Matches from 2011 and 2012, right?
Can you name more than 5 big matches, OUTSIDE La Liga, both in a CL and world cups, where Messi played like a Goat in key matches and decided a winner in CR7's style?

In the last 6-7 years, CR7 probably decided 20-30 big matches for RM and Portugal all by himself.
Again, did Messi do that more than 5 times AFTER Pep?

It can't be only about bad coaches.
Messi lost motivation. Messi lost some pace.
He is easier to neutralize. He can score only in one way etc.

A sad truth is:
In the last few years CR7 was a bigger clutch in big games than Messi.
And CR7 can turn NOT so perfect team into a winning team.
While this older, lazy Messi can deliver CL trophies ONLY if a whole team is working perfectly.

Messi has been deciding games against Atletico and Real in the Clasico but of course you gotta limit it to the CL, where both Messi AND Barca have failed in last 5 years outside of 14-15. I'm not denying that CL > Liga, but you don't need to set artifical limitations just to prove the point that CR7 has been more effective in CL last 5 seasons (everyone agrees on this). This is why I don't like arguing with you (no offense), too extreme when you can make a rational argument without doing so.