Douglas Costa

[Acer]

How is 0:19 or 1:00 for example just "pushing the ball"? I deliver you a video full of flicflacs, scoopturns, stepover-bodyfeints, fakeshots, drags, flicks and shit and you're just to stubborn to admit that they are actually there.
I should have stopped replying much earlier, but I jsut can't cope with the stupidity here. Douglas Costa is practically shitting all over your head with his skills, and you just blatantly deny that it smells.

what is fun, is that you had to search for a video of 7 years ago in the brazilian league to find some decent dribbling of Costa.

I'll show you what can do a a real dribbler with a similar athleticism of Costa but much more skillfull in the brazilian league:
[youtube]sZjlhw3skzM[/youtube]

 

[Yannik]

what is fun, is that you had to search for a video of 7 years ago in the brazilian league to find some decent dribbling of Costa.

Does that matter? I picked his Gremio footage, because Bayern videos just cover half a season. I can of course also post Bayern videos, the way he skinned Bellerin, Arbeloa or Ramos are fine examples of his skills aswell, but it wouldn't matter because whenever Douglas Costa does a skill, you would deny that it actually happened. The reason why a Gremio video fits here is not only for it's length but also because players showcase more technical ability in lower leagues as the stage is not so big. But when you enter a top 3 league, then professionalism enters and you do stuff that is helping your team to win games, and not to have fancy YouTube-Footage.

Lucas does also cool stuff, there is no denying that. But he just isnt as effective in dribbling terms as Costa is. Costa succeeds with the stuff he pulls off, he's playing better matches in a better league, has better CL matches against better opponents, also actually playing for the brazilian nationalteam in Lucas' spot. You can of course as always argue that "Lucas has more close control dribblings", but that's a highly overrated view since Douglas Costa still beats more players and THAT is what matters in the end.

 

[Acer]

Does that matter? I picked his Gremio footage, because Bayern videos just cover half a season. I can of course also post Bayern videos, the way he skinned Bellerin, Arbeloa or Ramos are fine examples of his skills aswell, but it wouldn't matter because whenever Douglas Costa does a skill, you would deny that it actually happened. The reason why a Gremio video fits here is not only for it's length but also because players showcase more technical ability in lower leagues as the stage is not so big. But when you enter a top 3 league, then professionalism enters and you do stuff that is helping your team to win games, and not to have fancy YouTube-Footage.

Lucas does also cool stuff, there is no denying that. But he just isnt as effective in dribbling terms as Costa is. Costa succeeds with the stuff he pulls off, he's playing better matches in a better league, has better CL matches against better opponents, also actually playing for the brazilian nationalteam in Lucas' spot. You can of course as always argue that "Lucas has more close control dribblings", but that's a highly overrated view since Douglas Costa still beats more players and THAT is what matters in the end.

I take Lucas over costa any day Lucas is much more technical and more unpredictable and for sure a much better dribbler. If had the the tactical intelligence of James Rodriguez it would be a devastating player because technically and athletically he is at the top. Costa in the nationally team is always invisible, those times that Lucas played, played better. beats more players? based on what, stats? but you were not the one who said that:

The "most completed dribbles" is usually the one, who tries the most dribblings in the first place.

And surely Ligue 1 despite the less quality has better and more organizzated defense and is more physical and athletics than Bundes, so is more diffcult to dribble

However the argument was not the comparision of Costa and Lucas, but is Costa a runner or a dribbler. For me is a runner with decente dribbling.

 

[Yannik]

I take Lucas over costa any day Lucas is much more technical and more unpredictable and for sure a much better dribbler. If had the the tactical intelligence of James Rodriguez it would be a devastating player because technically and athletically he is at the top. Costa in the nationally team is always invisible, those times that Lucas played, played better. beats more players? based on what stats?

Not by any stat, as you quoted, stats are deceiving. It's a simple observation. If the numbers back that officially up or not isnt even that important, Costa makes the better dribblings at the better times. If it wasnt like that, then he wouldn't play as a selecao-starter for a position that is MAINLY about beaiting players and creating chances instead of Lucas Moura, who doesnt even make the bench anymore.

And surely Ligue 1 despite the less quality has better and more organizzated defense and is more physical and athletics than Bundes.

If so then they have a great talent to hide that when they play in european competitions. We at Hannover bought a player from Stade Rennes called Mevlüt Erdinc, who was a decent striker in Ligue Un for his whole career. Almost a hundred goals in 300 matches for 5 Ligue Un clubs. Not Messi-esque but a consistent scorer. The guy was 28, so he reached an age where he should basically hit his peak, sounded a good signing to help us avoid relegation.
What happened was that he played 13 matches and yet got 0 goals and only 1 assist in a whole half season, looked slow and sluggish, until we sold him back to france. He basically did an Immobile. And today I heard, that he just scored again for Guingamp. But yeah enough of defenses.

 

[Jair Ventura]

The reason why a Gremio video fits here is not only for it's length but also because players showcase more technical ability in lower leagues as the stage is not so big. But when you enter a top 3 league, then professionalism enters and you do stuff that is helping your team to win games, and not to have fancy YouTube-Footage.

You lost me here.

Lucas does also cool stuff, there is no denying that. But he just isnt as effective in dribbling terms as Costa is.

Costa has more flair than Lucas but he isn't a better dribbler.

Costa succeeds with the stuff he pulls off, he's playing better matches in a better league

The defenses of the Bundesliga aren't as strong as the defenses of Ligue 1.

has better CL matches against better opponents

Huh? it's the same competition.

also actually playing for the brazilian nationalteam in Lucas' spot.

No, he isn't. But Lucas is younger and has more caps.

You can of course as always argue that "Lucas has more close control dribblings", but that's a highly overrated view since Douglas Costa still beats more players and THAT is what matters in the end.

This isn't true. Outside of Costa's half season with Bayern Lucas has been the more prolific player/dribbler.

 

[Jair Ventura]

If it wasnt like that, then he wouldn't play as a selecao-starter for a position that is MAINLY about beaiting players and creating chances instead of Lucas Moura, who doesnt even make the bench anymore.

Uh, Lucas has 17 more caps than Costa and is 2 years younger. Not sure what you're on about.

If so then they have a great talent to hide that when they play in european competitions.

Ribery & Coman? And that's just at Bayern.

 

[Yannik]

You lost me here.

Can I help you then?

Uh, Lucas has 17 more caps than Costa and is 2 years younger. Not sure what you're on about.

Lucas has played 2 international matches since 2013, and those were shortcaps (Douglas Costa started there), how are you not sure what I'm on about? Are we going to debate that Lucas Moura is NOT actually competing for a Selecao Call-up with other wingers, such as Douglas Costa? IN that regard it is absolutely irrelevant how much more caps Lucas has had. He doesnt get called up anymore.

Ribery & Coman? And that's just at Bayern.

Ribery and Coman are neither playing Ligue Un, nor are they defenders. This is about Ligue Un defenses in european competitions, not about french players.

The defenses of the Bundesliga aren't as strong as the defenses of Ligue 1.

The defenses in Ligue Un arent strong and most certainly not comparable to Bundesliga or some other big league. The teams aren't level with teams from other top 4 leagues anymore, that includes attack, defense and midfield. There is only PSG, and to a slight extend there is also Monaco, but not really though.

Huh? it's the same competition.

It's a different group with different teams.

 

[Acer]

Can I help you then?



Lucas has played 2 international matches since 2013, and those were shortcaps (Douglas Costa started there), how are you not sure what I'm on about? Are we going to debate that Lucas Moura is NOT actually competing for a Selecao Call-up with other wingers, such as Douglas Costa? IN that regard it is absolutely irrelevant how much more caps Lucas has had. He doesnt get called up anymore.



Ribery and Coman are neither playing Ligue Un, nor are they defenders. This is about Ligue Un defenses in european competitions, not about french players.




The defenses in Ligue Un arent strong and most certainly not comparable to Bundesliga or some other big league. The teams aren't level with teams from other top 4 leagues anymore, that includes attack, defense and midfield. There is only PSG, and to a slight extend there is also Monaco, but not really though.




It's a different group with different teams.

it is useless to waste time with you, it is clear that you have no idea what to say when you write that the mediocre defenses of bundes are better than that of Ligue 1.
Serie A and Ligue 1 have the best defenses in the top 5 leagues, even if they have less quality of other leagues are better tactically and ligue 1 is the most physical. Premier league has shitty defense and that of bundes are just a bit better than that of Eredivise. indeed even statistics show that, in the Ligue 1 and Serie A there is an average goal per game lower, more fouls, more tackles. But you're too childish to accept it, so good night sir.

 

[Yannik]

it is useless to waste time with you, it is clear that you have no idea what to say when you write that the mediocre defenses of bundes are better than that of Ligue 1.
Serie A and Ligue 1 have the best defenses in the top 5 leagues, even if they have less quality of other leagues are better tactically and ligue 1 is the most physical. Premier league has shitty defense and that of bundes are just a bit better than that of Eredivise. indeed even statistics show that, in the Ligue 1 and Serie A there is an average goal per game lower, more fouls, more tackles. But you're too childish to accept it, so good night sir.

If Ligue 1 and Serie A are superior tactically, why do they have the most fouls(?) and tackles then? Surely a tactically organized defense shouldnt be forced into tackles too much. According to statistics Liverpool has the 4th most tackles in europe, is that actually representing their defensive form? And pointing out a goal/game ratio is pretty weak. Ligue 1 has a higher goal/game ratio than Ligue 2. Does that mean Ligue 2 has better defenses? That's how shit stats can be. Goals per Game are dependend on a million cumulative factors, indlcuding the quality of the offense and just like the defense, the attacks in Ligue 1 lacks that compared to other leagues. Hence why they don't have a halfway proper team outside PSG.

 

[Co0ter]

How is this not dribbling?
If I'd open a wikipedia article about "dribbling", this is what I get.

Wikipedia isnt the best source but I'd be surprised if you actually managed to come up with a source disagreeing,

You're proving my point entirely with those examples. Two of them are doing a quick trick then pushing the ball past the player, like I mentioned, then beating him with speed. The other one he pushes the ball far ahead twice and beats him with his speed again.

Compare those videos of what Costa always does to what Neymar and Messi do on a daily basis. They run with the ball glued to their feet at a very fast pace, the Brazilian Ronaldo was famous for it too. That is dribbling.

 

[Yannik]

Compare those videos of what Costa always does to what Neymar and Messi do on a daily basis. They run with the ball glued to their feet at a very fast pace, the Brazilian Ronaldo was famous for it too. That is dribbling.

No that is simply close control at high speed by a series of small kicks. It is an aspect of dribbling but not mandatory, it can be helpful at times but also awfully contraproductive when you push into open space, as it can heavily slow you down. While being aesthetically pleasing it only comes of use in rare occasions, like when you're trying to go directly through a stacked defense line (something you shouldn't do unless you are the greatest player of all time or there is simply just no other option). Taking harder touches is perfectly fine when you seek for open space, what would be the point of taking soft touches when noone is near you anyway? The situations that the gifs are showcasing are perfect examples of where Costa is skilling the crap out of defenders in 1on1s or 1on2s just to get behind them into the vast lands where the grass is green and the centerbacks are panicked. Costa's initial positioning and agility warrant this style and make it almost impossible to defend against.
Jay-Jay Okocha, one of the greatest technicians of all times, did have a similar combination of skills/feints and accelerating while the defender is still confused. Or Yannick Bolasie as a more recent example to it. Of course that is dribbling, it's just not matching your closeminded criterias of it.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Can I help you then?

Probably not.

Lucas has played 2 international matches since 2013, and those were shortcaps (Douglas Costa started there), how are you not sure what I'm on about? Are we going to debate that Lucas Moura is NOT actually competing for a Selecao Call-up with other wingers, such as Douglas Costa? IN that regard it is absolutely irrelevant how much more caps Lucas has had. He doesnt get called up anymore.

Lucas was called up consecutively last fall, he was also called up this season. Over his career, despite being 2 years younger than Costa he has twice as many caps and has been featured 20 more times across all age groups. To say he isn't competing for a spot is patently incorrect. It isn't even debatable. Is he a permanent fixture in the squad? No, but that designation is specific to Neymar.

Ribery and Coman are neither playing Ligue Un, nor are they defenders. This is about Ligue Un defenses in european competitions, not about french players.

In which case, Monaco had the best defensive record in last seasons UCL. Paris had the best defensive record through the group stages.

The defenses in Ligue Un arent strong and most certainly not comparable to Bundesliga or some other big league.

For the most part, they're stronger.

The teams aren't level with teams from other top 4 leagues anymore

Yes, they are.

that includes attack, defense and midfield. There is only PSG, and to a slight extend there is also Monaco, but not really though.

Yea, that's why everyone's buying French players. Because they can't play. See you in the summer when Bayerns offering 30 or 40 million euros for Thomas Lemar.

It's a different group with different teams.

PSG had the tougher group this season and last.

 

[Yannik]

Lucas was called up consecutively last fall, he was also called up this season. Over his career, despite being 2 years younger than Costa he has twice as many caps and has been featured 20 more times across all age groups. To say he isn't competing for a spot is patently incorrect. It isn't even debatable. Is he a permanent fixture in the squad? No, but that designation is specific to Neymar.

In which case, Monaco had the best defensive record in last seasons UCL. Paris had the best defensive record through the group stages.

In this context PSG doesnt matter, because Lucas is playing FOR them, not against them. We were talking about the domestic opponents Costa and Moura are playing against.
Then there is only Monaco left, and the example you picked was from last season.
This year:
Bordeaux - EL (4th), most goals conceded in the group
Lyon - CL (4th), most goals conceded in the group
Marseille - EL (2nd), average number of goals conceded but in the easiest or 2nd easiest group (Group E & F are fighting for that title)
Monaco - EL (3rd), most goals conceded in the group
Saint Etienne - EL (2nd), that's fair they had a tougher group and just conceded an average number of goals conceded

PSG had the tougher group this season and last.

Not last season. They had Barcelona in it, but you need to finnish 2nd to qualify and the other 2 participants are called Ajax and APOEL. Bayern had more depth in their group with City, Roma and CSKA in their group and these are better teams than Ajax and APOEL.
This season their group was harder, but what I said was "has better CL matches against better opponents" and this true, because he played 5 matches from the start and rocked all of them, even the lost one to Arsenal, while Lucas played short caps. 2 of them also against Real Madrid, but that was a combined 39 minutes in which he didnt manage to contribute to something. Lucas CL highlight was the last game against Shakhtar, when PSG was already comfortably through, fielding a B-team.


EDIT: I'm a bit tired of writing these long comments, discussing 5 subtopics at the same time with 2-3 different people from which someone branches off another subtopic and so on and so on. If this discussion continues, let's shorten it at least and get back to the elementary things.

 

[Jair Ventura]

*snip*

The graphic confirms my statements and contradicts your own. He's competing for a spot.

In this context PSG doesnt matter, because Lucas is playing FOR them, not against them. We were talking about the domestic opponents Costa and Moura are playing against.

Last post you said "this is about French defenses in European competitions".

Then there is only Monaco left, and the example you picked was from last season.
This year:
Bordeaux - EL (4th), most goals conceded in the group
Lyon - CL (4th), most goals conceded in the group
Marseille - EL (2nd), average number of goals conceded but in the easiest or 2nd easiest group (Group E & F are fighting for that title)
Monaco - EL (3rd), most goals conceded in the group
Saint Etienne - EL (2nd), that's fair they had a tougher group and just conceded an average number of goals conceded

When you do this for every league, this will be relevant. As it is, 6 French teams qualified for Europe, 3 of them are still playing. The clubs that were eliminated had poor defensive records, two of the teams that went through had solid defensive showings, while the best of the French clubs had an excellent defensive record.

Seems normal.

Not last season. They had Barcelona in it, but you need to finnish 2nd to qualify and the other 2 participants are called Ajax and APOEL. Bayern had more depth in their group with City, Roma and CSKA in their group and these are better teams than Ajax and APOEL.

You just compared two clubs of the clubs PSG played to the three Bayern played so you could sweep away the elephant in the room that is Barcelona. The club that embarrassed Bayern en route to ultimately winning the tournament. Meanwhile, Roma, City, and CSKA have been comparatively poor.

I don't watch the Dutch leagues so I cannot compare them but this is a silly argument anyway as Costa wasn't playing for Bayern last season nor was he as prolific.

This season their group was harder, but what I said was "has better CL matches against better opponents" and this true, because he played 5 matches from the start and rocked all of them, even the lost one to Arsenal, while Lucas played short caps. 2 of them also against Real Madrid, but that was a combined 39 minutes in which he didnt manage to contribute to something. Lucas CL highlight was the last game against Shakhtar, when PSG was already comfortably through, fielding a B-team.

What about last season? Because Lucas had an excellent tournament before his injury, even earning motm in a win against Barcelona.


Anyways, before we get too far off topic, Acer's observations aren't necessarily wrong but I disagree with a lot of his conclusions. Yes, what Costa does is dribbling(he's also a great player) but I don't believe it as effective nor as reliable as quality close control. Against top FB's he isn't going to be nearly as successful with his style, whereas dribbling with the ball glued to the foot has emasculated even the best of defenders. It also has more longevity because it isn't reliant on athleticism.

 

[Yannik]

The graphic confirms my statements

Yeah the graphic totally undermines his role in the selecao (notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad).
Yes here is one for Costa, he played 14 of the last 15 matches for brazil since his first call-up in December '14. Making it safe to say that Douglas Costa is the preferred choice over Lucas Moura in the selecao.

and contradicts your own. He's competing for a spot.

Are we going to debate that Lucas Moura is NOT actually competing for a Selecao Call-up with other wingers, such as Douglas Costa?

Last post you said "this is about French defenses in European competitions".

The context of the whole defense debate has been about comparing Costa's and Lucas' domestic competition. It is self-explaining why Bayern and PSG arent included in there. Furthermore neither of the teams do represent the depths of their respective leagues. If you want to make a whole league comparison, let Frankfurt play Bastia etc

When you do this for every league, this will be relevant.

Something similar to this has already been done by the UEFA, it is a ranking based on a 5 year timespan, a coefficient counting results of all european teams while also highlighting the superior importance of CL to EL, and France sits 5th in it.

You just compared two clubs of the clubs PSG played to the three Bayern played so you could sweep away the elephant in the room that is Barcelona

And this is why:

you need to finish 2nd to qualify

I don't watch the Dutch leagues so I cannot compare them but this is a silly argument anyway as Costa wasn't playing for Bayern last season nor was he as prolific.

Fair enough, this isn't relevant in the context.

What about last season? Because Lucas had an excellent tournament before his injury, even earning motm in a win against Barcelona.

He was decent, but he declined and he has also been demoted into a rotational role for PSG and basically no role at all anymore for brazil.

Anyways, before we get too far off topic, Acer's observations aren't necessarily wrong but I disagree with a lot of his conclusions. Yes, what Costa does is dribbling(he's also a great player) but I don't believe it as effective nor as reliable as quality close control. Against top FB's he isn't going to be nearly as successful with his style, whereas dribbling with the ball glued to the foot has emasculated even the best of defenders. It also has more longevity because it isn't reliant on athleticism.

Glad we return to this. Costa played several solid fullbacks this season (Bellerin for example) and he turned him inside out.
Athleticism doesn't necessarily declines with age. Surely it does at 37 or 38, but players like Robben and Ronaldo havent lost any of their speed or agility despite hitting the thirties already. There are also examples of players who do decline physically. It's just a matter of fitness and discipline, and Costa isn't exactly sloppy when it's about his training. Saw some footage of his life in munich, the guy is practically hitting the gym until they throw him out at 12pm.