Douglas Costa

Jair Ventura

New member
Yeah the graphic totally undermines his role in the selecao (notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad-notinthesquad).

It doesn't, but his being called up in 4 of our last 6 matches does undermine your statement that he isn't competing for a spot.

Yes here is one for Costa, he played 14 of the last 15 matches for brazil since his first call-up in December '14. Making it safe to say that Douglas Costa is the preferred choice over Lucas Moura in the Selecao

This was never a discussion about whether or not Lucas was preferred over Costa.

The context of the whole defense debate has been about comparing Costa's and Lucas' domestic competition. It is self-explaining why Bayern and PSG arent included in there. Furthermore neither of the teams do represent the depths of their respective leagues. If you want to make a whole league comparison, let Frankfurt play Bastia etc

Again, you're the one that stated this was about how French defenses were holding up in Europe. Once you realized they haven't been as weak as you argued, but instead had been more than respectable over the last two seasons you backtracked and threw up some half ass illustration as if the performance of 5 French clubs in Europe is legetimately reflective of the overall defensive quality of a 20 club league.

Something similar to this has already been done by the UEFA, it is a ranking based on a 5 year timespan, a coefficient counting results of all european teams while also highlighting the superior importance of CL to EL, and France sits 5th in it.

*snip*

This says nothing of the respective defensive records of each league. I don't even know why you posted it.

And this is why:

Only having to finish 2nd to qualify doesn't negate the fact that Paris was matched up with the toughest club of either group, ultimately balancing out APOEL's comparitve mediocrity. Whatever the case, you're "plays against tougher teams in tougher groups" doesn't really hold up.

He was decent, but he declined and he has also been demoted into a rotational role for PSG and basically no role at all anymore for brazil.

He earned motm in 2 of PSG's 6 matches in the group stages, his most notable performance coming against Barcelona, and was the 3rd highest rated player of the group after Messi and Suarez at its conclusion. Then he got injured, not demoted, and didn't return for 3 months. At which point PSG was being eliminated by Barcelona. He's healthy again and has taken Cavani's spot as a holder in PSG's rotation.

As for his place with Selecao? He's 23 years old, has been called up in 4 of our last 6 matches, and has 33 caps. He's fine, especially if Costa's career is any indication.

Glad we return to this. Costa played several solid fullbacks this season (Bellerin for example) and he turned him inside out.

Bellarin is average.

Athleticism doesn't necessarily declines with age. Surely it does at 37 or 38, but players like Robben and Ronaldo havent lost any of their speed or agility despite hitting the thirties already.

You're athletic peak is 23-28. After that, it's downhill physically and both Ronaldo and Robben are evidence of this. Ronaldo isn't half as prolific as he was even a season ago, while Robben can hardly stay healthy enough to play.

There are also examples of players who do decline physically. It's just a matter of fitness and discipline, and Costa isn't exactly sloppy when it's about his training. Saw some footage of his life in munich, the guy is practically hitting the gym until they throw him out at 12pm.

Everyone regresses physically as they go into their 30's. This isn't even a question.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
It doesn't, but his being called up in 4 of our last 6 matches does undermine your statement that he isn't competing for a spot. This was never a discussion about whether or not Lucas was preferred over Costa.

Yes it was, look up comment 317, you just joined this debate late and made something completely else about. You even quoted this comment and said "no he isnt". Then I asked you if we are actually debating the fact that both are competing for a nationalteam spot, and I said multiple times that Costa edges this competition. I don't know how many times I should repeat this now, it's really a little annoying. Of course the fact that Lucas played 39 minutes in 2 years for the nationalteam IS underlining his status there, what are we even arguing about?



Again, you're the one that stated this was about how French defenses were holding up in Europe. Once you realized they haven't been as weak as you argued, but instead had been more than respectable over the last two seasons you backtracked and threw up some half ass illustration as if the performance of 5 French clubs in Europe is legetimately reflective of the overall defensive quality of a 20 club league.

You were basically throwing "Ligue Un defenses are the one or two best defenses in europe" into this, without any piece of backing that up. They're european record is poor, hwhen was the last time they had 3 teams in a CL knockout-tage? How often dot hey even have 2 teams there in recent years? The "half ass illustration" is basically displaying exactly what I'm talking about.

Only having to finish 2nd to qualify doesn't negate the fact that Paris was matched up with the toughest club of either group, ultimately balancing out APOEL's comparitve mediocrity. Whatever the case, you're "plays against tougher teams in tougher groups" doesn't really hold up.

Good, because I never said "tougher teams in tougher groups", I said "has better CL matches against better opponents". Taking all opponents into account (as a group consists of 4 teams, and not just 1) and basically rating their performances against those. Putting this into a half ass illustration:
Real Madrid > Arsenal
39min invisible vs Real < 180min explosion vs Arsenal

Then he got injured, not demoted, and didn't return for 3 months. At which point PSG was being eliminated by Barcelona. He's healthy again and has taken Cavani's spot as a holder in PSG's rotation.

Going from "Starter" to "has taken Cavani's spot as a holder in PSG's rotation." is a nice way of saying He got demoted.

As for his place with Selecao? He's 23 years old, has been called up in 4 of our last 6 matches, and has 33 caps. He's fine, especially if Costa's career is any indication.

Paulinho has 32 caps for brazil. Overall caps don't say shit over your current status when those lay back to 2-3 years ago. It isnt relevant if he is called up, when he isnt playing anyway. For gods sake, he has less minutes for Brazil these days than Podolski has for germany.

You're athletic peak is 23-28. After that, it's downhill physically and both Ronaldo and Robben are evidence of this. Ronaldo isn't half as prolific as he was even a season ago, while Robben can hardly stay healthy enough to play. Everyone regresses physically as they go into their 30's. This isn't even a question.

Robben has been injurie-prone his whole career and not just in his thirties. His speed and agility however, hasn't changed a lot. He broke speed records just last world cup with 30.

GleefulDistantBrownbutterfly.gif


Costa will be more than fine if he stays fit. Players loose a bit of physicality, but they don't get sudden arthritis for christ sake.
 
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Jair Ventura

New member
Yes it was, look up comment 317, you just joined this debate late and made something completely else about. You even quoted this comment and said "no he isnt". Then I asked you if we are actually debating the fact that both are competing for a nationalteam spot, and I said multiple times that Costa edges this competition. I don't know how many times I should repeat this now, it's really a little annoying. Of course the fact that Lucas played 39 minutes in 2 years for the nationalteam IS underlining his status there, what are we even arguing about?

No he isn't, as in, "no Costa isn't playing in Lucas spot". Because beyond not sharing the same preferred side, Costa doesn't have a fixed position anymore than Lucas does. You keep bringing up the latters time with the team apparently unaware that Costa didn't debut with Selecao until the fall of 2014, at 24, and had never played more than 45 minutes in a match prior to September's friendlies against the USA & Costa Rica. The only reason he saw 90 minutes in the World Cup qualifiers was because Neymar wasn't in the team for the first two matches, while our final match was against Peru. When Neymar returned against Argentina, Costa only played 33 minutes.

As for Lucas, he was called up in the fall of 2014 when Costa first debuted but had to be replaced by Talisca because he was injured. He then missed our friendlies in March and June, and therefore Copa America because he was recovering from groin surgery. In August he was called up again once he recovered fitness, and has since been included in the squad in 4 of our last 6 matches. He hasn't played a lot mostly due to injury, but it's clear he's in contention for a spot on the team going into the 2018 WC.

You were basically throwing "Ligue Un defenses are the one or two best defenses in europe" into this, without any piece of backing that up. They're european record is poor, hwhen was the last time they had 3 teams in a CL knockout-tage? How often dot hey even have 2 teams there in recent years? The "half ass illustration" is basically displaying exactly what I'm talking about.

UEFA coefficients aren't measures of defensive competency. We have more apt means to determine this such as goals, interceptions, dribbles, etc.

Good, because I never said "tougher teams in tougher groups", I said "has better CL matches against better opponents". Taking all opponents into account (as a group consists of 4 teams, and not just 1) and basically rating their performances against those. Putting this into a half ass illustration:
Real Madrid > Arsenal
39min invisible vs Real < 180min explosion vs Arsenal

As far as I know they've played in more UCL matches than those against Arsenal and Real respectively. For the most part, their performances have been comparable.

Going from "Starter" to "has taken Cavani's spot as a holder in PSG's rotation." is a nice way of saying He got demoted.

Perhaps I used the wrong words but Lucas is now starting over Cavani.

Paulinho has 32 caps for brazil. Overall caps don't say shit over your current status when those lay back to 2-3 years ago. It isnt relevant if he is called up, when he isnt playing anyway. For gods sake, he has less minutes for Brazil these days than Podolski has for germany.

Paulinho is 27, playing in China, and hasn't been called up since the WC. Hardly the same.

Robben has been injurie-prone his whole career and not just in his thirties. His speed and agility however, hasn't changed a lot. He broke speed records just last world cup with 30.

That was nearly 2 years ago. Since then, he's done almost nothing.

Costa will be more than fine if he stays fit. Players loose a bit of physicality, but they don't get sudden arthritis for christ sake.

He will experience declines in his athleticism same as everyone. At which point it will be important for him to alter his dribbling style to accomdate for his physical losses.
 

FCBarca

Mike the Knife
He's in incredible form atm...Has the look of the perfect winger with an extremely aggressive dribbling style that benefits from the perfect burst of speed to gain separation on defenders in much the same way Adama can
 

serghei

Senior Member
He's very good, I agree. Still, outside of his dribbling and good crossing, don't see him scoring a lot or giving insane passes, like other wing players do. Maybe that's his role, to be a classic winger, who's looking to beat his man and constantly find Muller and Lewa with crosses. Maybe it's the role that limits him, or maybe it is the player that is limited, can't decide based on what I've seen so far. Problem for me is that the part of Costa's game I really like is the first touch and first dribbling. Kind of puts me off that, in 99% of the cases, that great dribbling is followed by a whipped cross into the box, Premier League-like. Kind of plays to the percentage, based on the idea that if he puts in 4-5 great crosses into the box, at least one will result in a goal. Costa is not the player that will go all the way, going from the wing and scoring. He might be able to do that if we wasn't limited by the role in his team. But right now he is playing like a better version of Aaron Lennon.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
He's very good, I agree. Still, outside of his dribbling and good crossing, don't see him scoring a lot or giving insane passes, like other wing players do. Maybe that's his role, to be a classic winger, who's looking to beat his man and constantly find Muller and Lewa with crosses. Maybe it's the role that limits him, or maybe it is the player that is limited, can't decide based on what I've seen so far. Problem for me is that the part of Costa's game I really like is the first touch and first dribbling. Kind of puts me off that, in 99% of the cases, that great dribbling is followed by a whipped cross into the box, Premier League-like. Kind of plays to the percentage, based on the idea that if he puts in 4-5 great crosses into the box, at least one will result in a goal. Costa is not the player that will go all the way, going from the wing and scoring. He might be able to do that if we wasn't limited by the role in his team. But right now he is playing like a better version of Aaron Lennon.

Yes, that is his game. His mainobjective is breaching onto the goalline from the wing, then shoot an extremely sharp cross into the middle that is equally hard to convert for the striker, as it is for the defender to clear. He's forcing tap-ins, deflections, owngoals etc. On top of that, he tries to cross the nearest to the goal as possible, thus reducing the defenders reaction time. It's a game of probabilitys, he has a 25-30% succes rate, which is pretty sick given that he almost ALWAYS beats his man on the wing and goes through. He will have 5 scrosses or so, and at least 1 or 2 land in front of Lewandowskis feet, and those are 100% chances then. It's kind primitive when you think about it, but it's brutally lethal and the end product is unpredictable. This is the Douglas Costa Trademark move.
There is also another one though, which is quite famous. Between the 50th-70th minute Guardiola switches Costa to the right, where his role is different, he's simply cutting in and going for goals. He tends to dribble more instead of what the great Acer here would define as "run", and searches the quickest solution to either scoring, or set up a striker with an outside-boot pass. There are basically 2 Costas and they are equally effective, but Guardiola prefers the cross-method.
 
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El Flaco

Active member
Documentary: Inside the life of Douglas Costa



[youtube]/watch?v=R2dr_xjeB3E[/youtube]

[youtube]/watch?v=KKs-F4Do-ak[/youtube]

[youtube]/watch?v=RAXtqmCNQrI[/youtube]

[youtube]/watch?v=N9HO4XQnPAA[/youtube]
 
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