England

[vegitot]

All world cup winner coaches are native coach btw. Pretty sure other major tournaments too, except Greece in 2004 with Otto Rehhagel.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Tuchel is the best thing what England could have happened, english fans should be thankful 💯

 

[jamrock]

Getting mocked for not being able to produce a top class manager in nothing new for England.

If he wins the WC, at least you'll be mocked while being winners.

Big difference.

The real issue, is if he loses, then the take will be, you hire a foreign manager and still lose.

But even that isn't new.

The only potential new scenario, will be England potentially winning something.

 

[Rory]

I just think competitions based on nationalities should mean anyone involved with the team should be of that nation. It's also not a good thing that wealthier FAs can just buy better managers. In a world where football is won by those with the most money 99% of the time, international football could be a nice break from that. Obviously you could get into the fact wealthier countries can afford better infrastructure and opportunities for sport therefore are more likely to have better teams etc. etc. but that's getting into different territory.

 

[KingLeo10]

I just think competitions based on nationalities should mean anyone involved with the team should be of that nation. It's also not a good thing that wealthier FAs can just buy better managers. In a world where football is won by those with the most money 99% of the time, international football could be a nice break from that. Obviously you could get into the fact wealthier countries can afford better infrastructure and opportunities for sport therefore are more likely to have better teams etc. etc. but that's getting into different territory.

Argentina have not had a non-Argentine manager in almost 100 years.

So I do see your point. That bit of tradition is fun to see.

 

[Maradona37]

Yes I see both sides of it too, hence adding 'likes' to different arguments. I just think that - in England's case - if they wanna win something they have to find the best coach they can get. I take the piss but they do have some talented players, and there's no English coach who can bring the best out of them.

Surely it's better to win the World Cup with a German coach than not to win it with an English coach? It appears Jenks and MAYBE Rory think differently though. Fair enough.

Rory also raises a point I and others have made too - that international football has more (but not perfect) parity in that you can't just transfer in players etc. Sure the bigger wealthier nations with the historic football culture still do the best (as Rory implies), but at least it's not as crudely capitalist in that respect as club football. So that is definitely worth protecting.

 

[jamrock]

I get the point of national team, national manager, if that's the line I agree.

But the whole winning with a German, we will be mocked, doesn't make sense.

England already hired foreign managers, so doesn't make sense to go back now.

Go all in and try to win.

 

[Ter Stature]

"Why oh why can't we have an English manager? At a time when national identity matters more than it has for a very, very long time, and there is a resurgence in a sense of what it means to be English in an unashamed way, Gareth Southgate fitted the bill incredible well. This is a retrograde step in my view"

- Nigel Farage

Oh im laffin. Poles out pakis in!

(It has been suggested that the Farage name comes from a distant Huguenot ancestor)
(Both parents of one of Farage's great-grandfathers were Germans who emigrated to London from the Frankfurt area shortly after 1861)

 

[Birdy]

If England wins the WC with a non-English manager after not winning one in decades, nobody will care about the nationality of the manager.

This!

I am pretty sure Jenks will have totally forgotten about it and signing songs to Thomy if they win WC '26
Same for the many Englishmen who share similar views

Tradition is all nice and well, but it's a moot point nowadays when players that have nothing to do with a country get easily nationalized to play for the NT, or change NTs according to their chances of getting prominent role

 

[Jenks]

[...]

The only potential new scenario, will be England potentially winning something.

That's a potential scenario whether you hire a foreign coach or not. Again, this idea that you need an elite club coach to win something at international level is completely baseless. Southgate, a supposedly talentless buffoon got to two finals in four tournaments. The idea that Tuchel is the difference between glory and inevitable failure is barmy.

 

[Rory]

This!

I am pretty sure Jenks will have totally forgotten about it and signing songs to Thomy if they win WC '26
Same for the many Englishmen who share similar views

Tradition is all nice and well, but it's a moot point nowadays when players that have nothing to do with a country get easily nationalized to play for the NT, or change NTs according to their chances of getting prominent role

Not a moot point at all is it. Yes some players change allegiances or decide because they’ve spent x years living and working in a country they are going to take on that nationality, but it’s based on what is allowed outside of football.

Countries can’t sign other players and players can only change what country they represent if they have a genuine link to that country.

 

[Birdy]

Not a moot point at all is it. Yes some players change allegiances or decide because they’ve spent x years living and working in a country they are going to take on that nationality, but it’s based on what is allowed outside of football.

Countries can’t sign other players and players can only change what country they represent if they have a genuine link to that country.

No, it's expedited because it is football. Players become nationalized just for that reason and to play for a certain NT

I get the romanticism behind your concerns.
But it's really a moot point:

It's not only that there is no pure nationality nowadays.
It's also that there is no such thing as "national style of play," based on a certain football culture.
You don't have England playing 'English' football, Germany playing 'German' football, and Brazil 'Brazilian'
Yes, there was a time when all that obtained, and back then it was meaningful to say we want English football at the national team and an English manager (mind you, that part had more to do with transmitting the right ideas, the ideas of the national style of play, than being a national)

Since football has become globalized and football styles mixed up in all sorts of ways, it's ridiculous to pose these kind of concerns in 2024

 

[Maradona37]

No, it's expedited because it is football. Players become nationalized just for that reason and to play for a certain NT

I get the romanticism behind your concerns.
But it's really a moot point:

It's not only that there is no pure nationality nowadays.
It's also that there is no such thing as "national style of play," based on a certain football culture.
You don't have England playing 'English' football, Germany playing 'German' football, and Brazil 'Brazilian'
Yes, there was a time when all that obtained, and back then it was meaningful to say we want English football at the national team and an English manager (mind you, that part had more to do with transmitting the right ideas, the ideas of the national style of play, than being a national)

Since football has become globalized and football styles mixed up in all sorts of ways, it's ridiculous to pose these kind of concerns in 2024

While I agree with just about everything you say, a philosophical question could be posed: if nationality is more transient now, and the lines are less clearly demarcated, what is really the point of dividing countries into national teams in sport and playing for cultural or patriotic pride?

I am playing devil's advocate here, as this question above sounds very right-wing, which isn't me.

But the overall point of international football should be your people and culture against ours. It seems that is becoming more and more mixed up.

International football mirrors the modern world, in that it is more globalised and more transient than in the past, as said.

But I can sort of empathise with the point Jenks and Rory are making, even if I feel Jenks is too forthright with it.

 

[Birdy]

While I agree with just about everything you say, a philosophical question could be posed: if nationality is more transient now, and the lines are less clearly demarcated, what is really the point of dividing countries into national teams in sport and playing for cultural or patriotic pride?

I am playing devil's advocate here, as this question above sounds very right-wing, which isn't me.

No, it's an actually good question...
I guess in some years there will be voices saying precisely that: "scrap NT competitions because there are no clear nationalities or even more there is no such thing as national style of football.
So, what's the point? Maintaining a relic of the past for nostalgic reasons?"

I am sure we will hear that very soon

 

[Maradona37]

No, it's an actually good question...
I guess in some years there will be voices saying precisely that: "scrap NT competitions because there are no clear nationalities or even more there is no such thing as national style of football.
So, what's the point? Maintaining a relic of the past for nostalgic reasons?"

I am sure we will hear that very soon

I am pretty sure people say it now in some spaces but I have been thinking for a number of years that the boundaries are less clear now.

Who knows though. I guess you could make the argument if you are a left leaning/progressive person that nationality becoming more fluid is something to celebrate, and it makes international football more open-minded and fun.

I guess people's opinions on this will be shaped by their political opinions too.