England

[Rory]

No, it's expedited because it is football. Players become nationalized just for that reason and to play for a certain NT

I get the romanticism behind your concerns.
But it's really a moot point:

It's not only that there is no pure nationality nowadays.
It's also that there is no such thing as "national style of play," based on a certain football culture.
You don't have England playing 'English' football, Germany playing 'German' football, and Brazil 'Brazilian'
Yes, there was a time when all that obtained, and back then it was meaningful to say we want English football at the national team and an English manager (mind you, that part had more to do with transmitting the right ideas, the ideas of the national style of play, than being a national)

Since football has become globalized and football styles mixed up in all sorts of ways, it's ridiculous to pose these kind of concerns in 2024

It’s literally not a moot point, repeating it doesn’t make it so, unless you’re understanding of what that means is incorrect. No idea why you’re mentioning styles of play, ironic.

Pretty much all national team players either grew up in the country they represent, were born there or have family from there.

The manager is the most important person in football, you have mentioned how many times that Southgate/Deschamps need to leave to let their countries flourish. So you definitely believe they are important, so why should nations get to just hire world class managers of other nations? Goes against the whole idea of nations competing against one another.

Unless international football tournaments aren’t nations competing against each other? If that is not what international football is then fine.

 

[Don Juan Laporta Estruch]

What's the point of making international competitions when you allow the most important person ( the manager ) to be a foreigner.

Think about it. England cannot have Rudiger, who has the potential to help their defence, in their line up, but they can have Tuchel, who has the potential to help every fucking element of their attacking, defensive and structural patterns of play ?

They don't allow German players to play for England, but they allow the person who picks the players to be German?


It's absolutely farcical.

 

[Birdy]

It’s literally not a moot point, repeating it doesn’t make it so, unless you’re understanding of what that means is incorrect. No idea why you’re mentioning styles of play, ironic.

Pretty much all national team players either grew up in the country they represent, were born there or have family from there.

The manager is the most important person in football, you have mentioned how many times that Southgate/Deschamps need to leave to let their countries flourish. So you definitely believe they are important, so why should nations get to just hire world class managers of other nations? Goes against the whole idea of nations competing against one another.

Unless international football tournaments aren’t nations competing against each other? If that is not what international football is then fine.

Because it is not exactly "nations competing other nations" strictly defined, since long time ago.
Read my exchange with Maradona in the previous page. We analyzed why:
Boundaries are becoming less clear, nationality more transient.
Style of football is not irrelevant as you claim. It was part of the original idea. Having English playing against Germans, Brazilians against Italians, once meant a clash of different football philosophies.

I see that you want to romanticize it,
but the point where you are denying reality in front of your eyes is kinda stubborn

As for the question what is an international football tournament these days,
well as we discussed in the previous page, it is a question that is going to get posed again and again in the years to come, precisely because it gradually stops being 'nation against nation'

 

[Maradona37]

What's the point of making international competitions when you allow the most important person ( the manager ) to be a foreigner.

Think about it. England cannot have Rudiger, who has the potential to help their defence, in their line up, but they can have Tuchel, who has the potential to help every fucking element of their attacking, defensive and structural patterns of play ?

They don't allow German players to play for England, but they allow the person who picks the players to be German?


It's absolutely farcical.

That makes sense too lol. The coach is more important than any single player really.

It is a bit weird. I can see both sides as I have implied.

 

[Rory]

Because it is not exactly "nations competing other nations" strictly defined, since long time ago.
Read my exchange with Maradona in the previous page. We analyzed why:
Boundaries are becoming less clear, nationality more transient.
Style of football is not irrelevant as you claim. It was part of the original idea. Having English playing against Germans, Brazilians against Italians, once meant a clash of different football philosophies.

I see that you want to romanticize it,
but the point where you are denying reality in front of your eyes is kinda stubborn

As for the question what is an international football tournament these days,
well as we discussed in the previous page, it is a question that is going to get posed again and again in the years to come, precisely because it gradually stops being 'nation against nation'

Not wanting to romanticise it at all, that's a straw man. It is nations competing against each other. It's simply an opinion that it's harder to define your nationality nowadays, vast majority of people know what nationality they are. Maybe you're referring to 1st/2nd/3rd gen immigrants? Not sure because you're being pretty vague. If that's who you're on about these people play for the nation they were born in/grew up in or the one they have heritage in. It's not rocket science.

You're basing your arguments on a specific world view, not what the vast majority views as nationality.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

In 20 years we can do transfers from 1 country to another country

@soul24rage Give us Lautaro and MacAllister, we will give you Felix and Jota 🤔🤔

 

[soul24rage]

In 20 years we can do transfers from 1 country to another country

@soul24rage Give us Lautaro and MacAllister, we will give you Felix and Jota 🤔🤔

We will make Felix and Jota World Champions and back-to-back Copa America Champions.

 

[Birdy]

Not wanting to romanticise it at all, that's a straw man. It is nations competing against each other. It's simply an opinion that it's harder to define your nationality nowadays, vast majority of people know what nationality they are. Maybe you're referring to 1st/2nd/3rd gen immigrants? Not sure because you're being pretty vague. If that's who you're on about these people play for the nation they were born in/grew up in or the one they have heritage in. It's not rocket science.

You're basing your arguments on a specific world view, not what the vast majority views as nationality.

1st/2nd/3rd gen immigrants chose what NT to play for based on their chances to get trophies or be in the forefront, rather than where they were born or feel at home.
Lamine could play for either Marroco or Spain. He picked Spain because he is a generational talent and thought he can win big trophies with the big nation. Abde, on the contrary, picked Marroco because he is not as generational talent and he thought his chances to play at Marrocan NT are much higher.
Countless other examples with many NTs
That's enough to tell you that nationality is not clear cut, and it will become even less so, given that it will become even easier than it is today to get a nationality

 

[delancey]

Smart move by England to appoint one of the best managers in the world. Now… if only Man U would do the same.

 

[Rory]

1st/2nd/3rd gen immigrants chose what NT to play for based on their chances to get trophies or be in the forefront, rather than where they were born or feel at home.
Lamine could play for either Marroco or Spain. He picked Spain because he is a generational talent and thought he can win big trophies with the big nation. Abde, on the contrary, picked Marroco because he is not as generational talent and he thought his chances to play at Marrocan NT are much higher.
Countless other examples with many NTs
That's enough to tell you that nationality is not clear cut, and it will become even less so, given that it will become even easier than it is today to get a nationality

Yes, they're able to choose those countries because they are either born there, grew up there or have heritage there. Do most players have these choices to make? no

You don't know the reasons they chose what they chose, you're just assuming things.

There's no good argument for the most important person in the setup being allowed to effectively be a transfer when there are rules in place for which players can be selected.

 

[Birdy]

Yes, they're able to choose those countries because they are either born there, grew up there or have heritage there. Do most players have these choices to make? no

You don't know the reasons they chose what they chose, you're just assuming things.

There's no good argument for the most important person in the setup being allowed to effectively be a transfer when there are rules in place for which players can be selected.

Yes, there is some connection to both countries. But this tell you precisely that nationality is not singular nowadays.

As for the reason it is not some romantic stuff, they themselves tell the reason most of the times or you can guess
Gyndogan or Ozil will never choose Turkey, when they knew they are good enough to start in the best German XI
Same thinking in the case of Lamine, he would have been stupid from a footballing pov to waste the chance to win big trophies with Spain. And he already won

The rule of being a national applies to players only, not to coaches.
My argument is: in the time where nationality for players is becoming more and more fuzzy to define and transient, it sounds ridiculous to want to place such restrictions to coaches, who are not part of the rule to begin with

 

[Maradona37]

My argument is: in the time where nationality for players is becoming more and more fuzzy to define and transient, it sounds ridiculous to want to place such restrictions to coaches, who are not part of the rule to begin with

Only caveat I would add to this is even though nationality is more transient as I originally said, you generally need some ties to the nation, even if it is naturalisation. With coaches though there doesn't have to be any tie.

It's a tricky debate and both sides are valid imo.

I do agree fully that better players will choose the better (dare I say colonist?) nation, and lesser players will play for whoever wants them.

 

[Ter Stature]

Not wanting to romanticise it at all, that's a straw man. It is nations competing against each other. It's simply an opinion that it's harder to define your nationality nowadays, vast majority of people know what nationality they are. Maybe you're referring to 1st/2nd/3rd gen immigrants? Not sure because you're being pretty vague. If that's who you're on about these people play for the nation they were born in/grew up in or the one they have heritage in. It's not rocket science.

You're basing your arguments on a specific world view, not what the vast majority views as nationality.

Half the "English" team could play for Ireland, Kane, Gallagher, Bellend, Rice, probably nearly everyone.

The rest could play for Nigeria or whatever.

Other countries like China or Indonesia just naturalize players, even those who don't have any connection to the country.

In a few decades cricket will be the main sport of England anyway.

For globalized nations, sports based nationalism makes less and less sense.

 

[TheStig]

At least it's not like in basketball or handball where you can "buy" any player from any country even if he doesn't have any link to the your country.