Ernesto Valverde - V1

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
I think we still try to play the same just worse, but it is still slow possession football.
Last sentence I agree but that is the problem that worries me more then coach change...ok, Iniesta is old now, but we are moulding this kind of players and trying to mould those we buy like Dembele who played completely different football in Dortmund.

Yes, this is why I want a manager that plays football more like Tuchel who he had in Dortmund. We need some new players for that too. This team is too slow and too conservative.

But we need to move the ball faster, have players that are able to dribble and ready to play risky passes and need more movement with Messi playing further forward, creative burden not on him. Have fast players that makes runs behind the defence and also so we can player counter-attacks.

We can retain the club's identity with some tweaks to it. Playing possession based football with fast transitions and counter attacks is great if you have the players able to get past the opposition and play risky passes.

I made a post here I will try to explain further later today:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/14059-10-Lionel-Messi?p=1903272#post1903272
 

Gaudi

Senior Member
Yes, this is why I want a manager that plays fast-transition football more like Tuchel who he had in Dortmund. We need some new players for that too. This team is too slow and too conservative.

But we need to move the ball faster, have players that are able to dribble and ready to play risky passes and need more movement with Messi playing further forward, creative burden not on him. Have fast players that makes runs behind the defence and also so we can player counter-attacks.

I made a post here I will try to explain further later today:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/14059-10-Lionel-Messi?p=1903272#post1903272

Completly agree I'm just worried our style doesn't allow for that, even players we tried moving from La Masia like Alena and Semper look from simillar mould....but hopefully I'm wrong, then we need a good coach a things will improve dramatically.
 

Barcilliant

Senior Member
If Valverde goes who is his replacement?

There is a dearth of managerial talent at the moment. Lopetegui or Heynkes are the only ones who come to mind.

We need a manager with a big personality who knows tactics and plays good football.
 

henias

New member
Yes, this is why I want a manager that plays football more like Tuchel who he had in Dortmund. We need some new players for that too. This team is too slow and too conservative.

But we need to move the ball faster, have players that are able to dribble and ready to play risky passes and need more movement with Messi playing further forward, creative burden not on him. Have fast players that makes runs behind the defence and also so we can player counter-attacks.

We can retain the club's identity with some tweaks to it. Playing possession based football with fast transitions and counter attacks is great if you have the players able to get past the opposition and play risky passes.

I made a post here I will try to explain further later today:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/14059-10-Lionel-Messi?p=1903272#post1903272

The problem is that Iniesta and Busquets are known for their control in midfield, but EV likes to crowd the midfield so much that they have no passing options and can only pass sideways.

When they pass forward there's no one upfront, Dembele would provide a wide option for midfielders like them but EV is just so obssessed with 442.

Like I refuted Barcaman last week when he suggested we play conservative without because he thinks Roma will sit deep in their box, Roma is a different team from Chelsea, they play long ball and transition, defending against them is risky. Playing Dembele will push them deep in their box and can be useful for numbers and speed in counter attack. Roberto is just too weak and slow.

If we played the same line-up as we did against Juventus, we would tear them apart.

I agree we need an upgrade from Rakitic, we need someone who is much faster to pair up with Arthur. We need to play like Madrid, fast, controlled and lethal offensive football.

Griezmann, Dembele and Messi would be a lethal strike force. But I wouldnt write Suarez off just yet, because he doesnt have support at the front, Roberto too slow and no Dembele. But his shots can be technical and lethal as a target man. Strength as a CF. Only bad thing is he can be a bit slow.

But for now it's best we focus on getting quality midfielders, we wasted this season and Iniesta and Busquets will be a year older next year.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
BBZ, is right to a point, but it's also wrong imo to say that you need workhorses to go around teams pressing you. Not true. But the part I agree with is that you do need physically strong players if you play in a way that is bound to make physicality an important factor. And we have done that both with Lucho and especially with Valverde now.

It's no secret. Physically weak players are a liability in defense when used with rigid tactics and setups. The biggest problem is that we stopped playing fluid football. And by fluid, I don't mean Pep-Cruyff totaal voetbal, but any sort of positional play that involves at least medium movement from the players off the ball. It doesn't have to be as dramatic and extensive as under Guardiola.

I am amazed (not only last night) how little movement there is in the team once a teammate has the ball. It's almost no support at all. So, when the other teams have our players marked or pressed it basically comes down to that player holding on on his own in a 1 vs 1 scenario, and this, of course, means the duel is bound to have a big physical factor in it since we're not playing ballet here. It's funny because, vs Roma, the only team that played defensive destructive Italian rigid football was Barcelona. Valverde wants his players to stay in their area because he is afraid we'd lose defensive shape in transition when we lose the ball. This is defensive football at its best, with some great players who managed to influence the smaller games consistently at the right moments in the League, which is why we have this lead without playing high-quality football. This wasn't going to work with players like ours. This style works when you have the likes of Vieira in midfield, Gatusso, Nesta - Maldini - Zanetti like players in defense. These players can hold a defensive position individually in defense. Meaning if the ball is played in their area, they have the aggression, the skillset, and the tenacity to individually solve duels consistently. We don't have that. When you press our players and you manage to isolate them, they lose the ball quite a lot. Including our best players like Messi, Busquets and others.

Our players are too weak to resist high pressure in an individual way. Almost all of them. What they can do is play around that. But you need 1) speed (as in pass the ball faster than the opponent closes the channels without it) and 2) off the ball movement in order to gain space and advance the play whenever possible. Yes, Roma doing what they did automatically leaves spaces behind. You'll see that in the semifinals. But if your option is to boot the field to Messi and Suarez, you're dead. What you should do is move more off the ball, and play faster, as in every player on the ball to have a viable passing option in the first moments. Before he's tied up in an individual physical duel. So, we exposing our lack of physicality by playing a type of football that has exactly that as a key component for success. Look at all teams that defended deep (Juve early 00's, Milan mid 00's, Inter late 00's, Chelsea mid to late 00's and you'll see physical beasts in there). Players you can't just bully because they themselves are the bullying type.
 

Neymessi

Active member
Nah you are lying as usual and I never said that 'Barca were always in control v Chelsea and Sevilla'.

You are too giddy about Barca getting beat and making things up.

Nah you are selectively clinging about few phrases from me. You were the biggest EV apologist here and called others like me hypocrities and shit when we tried to argue we are in trouble. It would have been ok if you just kept your opinion but you always tried to run the narrative that we are hypocritical while we were right all along and you were wrong and maybe you should introspect about the past turn of events and learn to not sound so psuedo intellectual everywhere on the forum.

Honestly we were all apologetic because of the low expectations coming into the season combined with the fact that we were perfoming well in all the important games. But for the last month or two we expected that little bit extra from Ernesto, for the team to kick in another gear when needed and he simply showed he has no balls for a team like this. His conservative approach was acceptable for a bit, but we expected to see another facet to the style he presented and it never appeared.

Nowadays in Football no single approach will work, you must have several aces under your sleeves and the biggest dissapointment of all was seeing this team throughout 90 mins stick to his one dimensional approach.

I know where we were at the start of the season, but results were always misleading under him. How many times when we won did we actually play good? Not much and at that point EV apologists made up shit and not just new members, members with good reputation and high post count went with the narrative that every thing he was doing was right, which wasn't the case at all.

If we remove our bias then the chelsea match was a good warning sign of how terrible we are. We were very lucky to advance against them but as always apologists came to the rescue and made excuses that this was all Evs plan and how we didn't get a win at stamford bridge even in the past totally forgetting how that chelsea team was much better than current one.

This isn't a sudden surprise. I mean, it is. I was dead sure we were going to be anhilated if we were paired bayern/rm/manc in semis but even I didn't think we would blow a 3-0 lead to roma. And now everyone is blaming EV half and the rest of the team half but they are wrong yet again. This is all on EV.
 

tacticvarium

New member
Having workhorses to improve our physique is only temporary and one-dimensional solution that won't last long.
I have said this multiple times regarding Lucho and Valverde's approach.
You need more fundamental change to improve the whole system.
 

DAMNit

Member
This guy got appointed and our football went to shit!
All we do now is play the ball to Messi, to either score or assist someone.
The midfield has no shape, the defense has been porous and shaky, The play has been distasteful!
This is the worst Barca I have watched play and I say that with Tata Martino and Jordi Roura in mind.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Workhorses are useless for us. There are technical players that are gifted physically too. They're better than simply having players that got strength and run around like headless chickens(Paulinho, no positional awareness, goals are a bonus, but need to do his #1 job too)
 

henias

New member
Workhorses isnt the answer. Technicality and transition is the key factors for our style of play. Something like how Madrid uses Isco, Modric and Kroos.
 

mesiesta

Senior Member
Calm down guys, he will be here next season too for sure. There is no way he will be sucked with winning La Liga. 8 months ago no one was expecting us to win La Liga with the squad he got, but he managed to do it, so there is no way that board will suck him at this moment.
 

Neymessi

Active member
Calm down guys, he will be here next season too for sure. There is no way he will be sucked with winning La Liga. 8 months ago no one was expecting us to win La Liga with the squad he got, but he managed to do it, so there is no way that board will suck him at this moment.

Nah his la liga success is misleading as fuck. He should be gone ASAP. Roma match wasn't an aberration. It was just a match where we finally ran out of luck.

If he goes unbeaten in league then his chances of sack are very low imo. I can't say for sure but if going unbeaten affects his sack chances massively I would want us to lose a match in the league. Can't give 2 shits if someone says I am not a true barca fan for wanting that.
 
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DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
If the board are smart they'll look at PSG and Unai Emery. It's not going to change next season in the CL. If the board don't care about the CL anymore then sure, keep him and be happy with the football we're playing, but say it publicly.

To be honest there might be a chance we play better football next season and do better with signings, but what is worrying is the lack of fight shown. Under Lucho the team at least fought. Also, Lucho usually took all the blame himself and generally looked unfazed. Valverde basically said it was difficult conditions for us to play under with the stadium noise and the pressure.

That's small club mentality and that's what worries me the most.
 
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henias

New member
Calm down guys, he will be here next season too for sure. There is no way he will be sucked with winning La Liga. 8 months ago no one was expecting us to win La Liga with the squad he got, but he managed to do it, so there is no way that board will suck him at this moment.

If he is still adopts the same mentality and clueless player management next season, I wont be surprised if we lose the league next season. And then wasting all our energy in the Copa, same old story that repeats it self with Tata, Lucho.

And also if he keeps constantly whining about having a small squad, then he can pack his bags and fck off to Bilbao.

We'll see. Like I have said the results he get in the first few months is only temporary, soon he wont be getting results when he is found out.
 
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El Barcelona

Well-known member
Our 'style of play' was always much faster as this slow, utter shit possession football of the last years. I remember our glory days under Guardiola were we played the most beautiful and attractive football mixed with counter attacks. When our defenders recovered the ball, we stood with 3 passes for the goal of the opponent, now the first thing that we do is a backpass. This team and coach needs a deep analyze why they perform like this slow, boring and lack of motivation football that is so easy to defend. Changes need to be made if they want to win something others than La Liga and Copa.
 

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