Ernesto Valverde - V1

[serghei]

Yeah, our other players creating less chances than Marcelo and our CF not being able to control the ball, our manager not integrating new signings, employing pussy tactics etc. is all arguable.

You're underestimating the importance of intensity and effort in CL. [MENTION=11986]footyfan[/MENTION] had a very good comment on the subject in the CL thread. This is not like vs Alaves where you walk 90% of the match and in the other 10% you score 3 and win the game.

Man was a ghost in all 3 QF we've played vs Atletico, Juve and Roma.

 

[shadows]

Highly arguable.

I think you should also consider that Messi has been surrounded with poorer and poorer players every year..and Messi needs atleast one creative player apart from him....He has carried us whenever we had a midfield capable of holding its own....We have huge problems as in we need someone creative in midfield, sure coutinho is there but he needs some work on the defensive aspect of playing for us...same with Dembele..

 

[KingLeo10]

the only thing I have a problem is he runs 8 km a game irrespective of whether we're dominating, 50-50, or getting hammered. The one time in recent years I saw him break this mold was in the 3-2 win v real at the bernabeu last season where he took on the real midfield virtually by himself after losing a tooth to marcelo. he won us that game against a madrid that was near unstoppable. if he can generate that type of effort for CL KO games...we have a shot vs anybody even with some of the limitations around him.

 

[DonAK]

You're underestimating the importance of intensity and effort in CL. [MENTION=11986]footyfan[/MENTION] had a very good comment on the subject in the CL thread.

I agree with that, but to say Messi is bigger problem or as big of a problem than the issues I underlined and more is not true.

Not like the rest of them are able to play with any intensity either.

 

[shadows]

the only thing I have a problem is he runs 8 km a game irrespective of whether we're dominating, 50-50, or getting hammered. The one time in recent years I saw him break this mold was in the 3-2 win v real at the bernabeu last season where he took on the real midfield virtually by himself after losing a tooth to marcelo. if he can generate that type of effort for CL KO games...we have a shot vs anybody even with some of the limitations around him.

For this the entire squad shouldn't be run to the ground playing every game..Everyone is now 30!!! This is the only problem I've with EV..His tactics are otherwise decent but he has driven the squad to exhaustion.. Plus messi has always had this issue..its something we've played through before as a kind of his limitation otherwise against his otherwise genius skill.

 

[serghei]

I agree with that, but to say Messi is bigger problem or as big of a problem than the issues I underlined and more is not true.

Not like the rest of them are able to play with any intensity either.

Messi's performances in the last 3 years in the QF have been a huge problem. As big as any other I can think of. When the other team is pressing you and your best player is just giving up walking on the pitch and standing 5m in offside while his teammates are pressed to death and forced into making errors every minute, it's bad. Really bad.

 

[DonAK]

Messi's performances in the last 3 years in the QF have been a huge problem. As big as any other I can think of. When the other team is pressing you and your best player is just giving up walking on the pitch and standing 5m in offside while his teammates are pressed to death and forced into making errors every minute, it's bad. Really bad.

Yet he's been one of the few reasons we've even reached that stage in the first place.

Only reason this season.

 

[serghei]

Yet he's been one of the few reasons we've even reached that stage in the first place.

Only reason this season.

I disagree. He wasn't that great vs PSG. And a year before we played Arsenal... so... you can surely make a case about Chelsea at home, but that's about it.

 

[shadows]

I disagree. He wasn't that great vs PSG. And a year before we played Arsenal... so... you can surely make a case about Chelsea at home, but that's about it.

We had half a decent midfield the last time in 2015 when we had Xavi coming on as a super sub.. But usually we have struggled whenever our mid hasn't been able to provide any supply. Ofcourse, I agree with cases where he screwed up like Copa America where he missed a penalty or the Chelsea SF where he missed a penalty and a few chances.. But to say he screwed up against Roma is a travesty when the entire squad plus the coach is to blame..plus the PSG game is like massively dumb luck for Neymar..any half decent coach would've shut us out and no glory!!

Plus think about this way..Cristiano was very poor yesterday but Real won despite no contribution from him..does that happen with us??

 

[serghei]

We had half a decent midfield the last time in 2015 when we had Xavi coming on as a super sub.. But usually we have struggled whenever our mid hasn't been able to provide any supply. Ofcourse, I agree with cases where he screwed up like Copa America where he missed a penalty or the Chelsea SF where he missed a penalty and a few chances.. But to say he screwed up against Roma is a travesty when the entire squad plus the coach is to blame..plus the PSG game is like massively dumb luck for Neymar..any half decent coach would've shut us out and no glory!!

We've had a better team than all teams that kicked us out in the last 3 years. The issue was that our opponent dominated us in intensity. In short, they wanted it more and worked more to go through. And Messi is among the players who were the least involved and the least intense in all those 3 ties.

 

[shadows]

We've had a better team than all teams that kicked us out in the last 3 years. The issue was that our opponent dominated us in intensity. In short, they wanted it more and worked more to go through. And Messi is among the players who were the least involved and the least intense in all those 3 ties.

Games are mostly won in midfield..plus even the best of players have a poor game every now and then ( or when opponents double or triple mark you)... But in our case, who has really stepped up??

Imagine yesterday Ronaldo performing poorly..But Marcelo scored and Ascencio scored..and who made the right change at HT..yep the coach did..what did our coach do every time? Plus did anyone else step up in our case or do anything other than "hey i dont know..let me give the ball to Messi"..the one time they did that we beat Real Madrid in the league!

 

[Jägermeister]

If he fails next year again, that's it, which I strongly feel will happen again.

Another 2 years of Messi's prime wasted and some of his disgusting fans are willing to sacrifice that just so they can hope this coward of a coach can prove something big.

It just doesn't work that way.

Messi is definitely not on his prime anymore.

 

[shadows]

Messi is definitely not on his prime anymore.

Well he doesn't have to..But hey Ronaldo isn't either..But coach utilises cristiano's talents well and has built the talent accordingly focusing on the CL..the coaches we seem to get seem to focus on the Copa and wastes everyone's energy on that meaningless run which exhausts everyone through Jan and Feb ..and getting us knocked out in CL..if only someone said skip the Copa focus just on the league and the CL considering the average age of our squad in general plus the talents of our back up players

 

[khaled_a_d]

Yeah, our other players creating less chances than Marcelo, a LB, and our CF not being able to control the ball, our manager not integrating new signings, employing pussy tactics etc. is all arguable.

Remove Messi from this team and it won't win the league or get past Chelsea in the R16.

His contribution or lack thereof is a problem, but less so than other problems.

Remove Messi for what? play 10 vs 11 or get a bench player? I mean I never get the argument of remove X and see what happens. If Messi wasn't there we would have gone for some replacement , played with different tactics and have ton of other different variables

Messi himself is a tactical problem, and he is underperforming in big stage in past 3 years except in Bernabeu, he has been betraying his body by rejecting to rest games while resting on field thinking it will extend his career while it can't even extend his season.

Messi is the team vice captain, and the player that the whole team look for, when he shows lack of intensity and set precedents of insisting to never be rested it is a huge problem, it makes your problem systematic

Cr7 was shit last night and yet he showed more intensity and effort than Messi did in most of our 1/4 CL game since 2013 except one year. That is a problem.

Sure, he is still our best player (but not best in the world anymore IMHO) and sure we have ton of other problems on and off the pitch, but pretending that Messi isn't an issue won't end good for this club.

Well he doesn't have to..But hey Ronaldo isn't either..But coach utilises cristiano's talents well and has built the talent accordingly focusing on the CL..the coaches we seem to get seem to focus on the Copa and wastes everyone's energy on that meaningless run which exhausts everyone through Jan and Feb ..and getting us knocked out in CL..if only someone said skip the Copa focus just on the league and the CL considering the average age of our squad in general plus the talents of our back up players

Cr7 utilize his talent well too, way better than current Messi.
Messi has rarely rested in past few years, it isn't just EV to pretend it is a coach problem.

 

[shadows]

well people who keep complaining that Messi plays every game..what about Suarez or Pique or Iniesta..they also rest on the field?? When will people agree its the coach who keeps doing this?? How is Zidane able to convince Cristiano to rest every now and then?? Surely if there's a good enough coach he will be able to convince..I mean Messi follows tactics ..its not like he is all over the place..

If a coach is smart enough he wouldn't have driven the old players to the ground and instead focused on things like CL..resting midfield players esp.. Busquest was overplayed , same with Iniesta and Rakitic and Suarez and Messi as well..

Plus food for thought : If messi can do everything why do ppl complain about poor tactics of EV or Lucho..Surely messi could've risen above tactics??? I am all for blaming Messi(Chelsea SF for starters) when the need arises but to blame him even when the team's been poor or tactics have been poor is insane...