Ernesto Valverde - V1

[George_Costanza]

What's with those pro Velvarde shifting the blame and attacking Messi? Those are the same people who used to defend Lucho. It seems some ran out of ideas and came with this power/intensity stupid argument. Messi barely plays with intensity because he doesn't need to and he is not that type of player. Messi is probably the most efficient and effective player to ever play.

This is his stats vs. Real last year Clasico someone mentioned here that he was intense:

Walking - 83.1%
Jogging - 10.8%
Running - 4.95%
Sprinting - 1.15%

He scored a 10/10 match rating.

Stop making excuses for idiot managers this board has hired. CR7 has WC midfielders servicing him. Madrid don't even need Ronaldo to win matches for them, while Messi has Slowlinho, Slowkitic, Slowmes, and overworked 34 years old Iniesta. None of them can produce any intensity or win us matches.

 

[khaled_a_d]

well people who keep complaining that Messi plays every game..what about Suarez or Pique or Iniesta..they also rest on the field?? When will people agree its the coach who keeps doing this??

They are all on fault, and all being called for their performances and rarely people defend their bad performance. In addition one is leaving the club, the other we are bringing a replacement
Pique is to blame and getting blamed all the time for forcing himself to play, why wouldn't we blame Messi for that? And tbf with Pique we have shit situation in CB, Vermaelen injured half of the year, Mina is huge unknown and doesn't seem coach rate him.

How is Zidane able to convince Cristiano to rest every now and then?? Surely if there's a good enough coach he will be able to convince..I mean Messi follows tactics ..its not like he is all over the place..

Why many coaches failed to do so with Messi? it isn't like EV is the only one who failed to convince him to rest.

Plus food for thought : If messi can do everything why do ppl complain about poor tactics of EV or Lucho..Surely messi could've risen above tactics??? I am all for blaming Messi(Chelsea SF for starters) when the need arises but to blame him even when the team's been poor or tactics have been poor is insane...

No one has said Messi is the problem, what we are saying he is a part of it. Messi is supposed to be the difference maker. If people thinking we are wasting Messi years because he win league but not CL, then there is a question about why Messi have been bad in 2nd play off round for 4 of 5 years by his standard?
He need to realize his age, he need to realize he need to tweek his game for the team. The team itself need to evolve and get upgrades. You can't isolate one thing from the other.
We aren't gonna win with shit coaching, we aren't gonna win without upgrade in midfield. but we also not gonna win if our best player keep ball watching and walking the pitch for 90 minutes when it matters most in the CL

 

[henias]

Messi is definitely not on his prime anymore.

Yeah definitely not, but is somehow top scorer in all competitions for Barcelona. Without Messi, u'd think they will even get past Chelsea.

Well, what's for sure is 2 more years, he will be done and dusted. Let's see how this shitty board and managers will recover from a post Messi era.

People blaming Messi is ridiculous.

 

[BarcaMessi]

if we're going to use whichever cut points suit our argument, here's one.

madrid have only won 3 CL in the last 15 years.

united have won only 1 CL in the last 18 years.

bayern have won only 2 CL in the last 45 years.

no one's denying the team and manager need MUCH improvement in CL. but these X in Y year stats are stupid. it takes a myriad of factors to win the competition in addition to team quality. what we should be concerned about is the performances.

do not blame my X in Y stat just because your X in Y stats are the really stupid ones.

If RM wins UCL again this year and 3peat. who will give shit about 3 in 15? All the world will know and remember is 3peat in UCL.

1 UCL in 7 years is what matters to the Barca board who decides Valverde's future. why would the Barca board give a shit about Unite and Bayern who are not expected to win UCL every year like Barca.

 

[Birdy]

-Messi
Messi's quality is undeniable. BUT, given the way he is (not) defending, you have to make choices as manager.
You have to build a system able to compensate for that, for defending only with 10, sometimes with 9 (suarez). Something increasingly difficult for modern footbal
-Intensity
That's the truest assessment i have recently read about Barca. Yes, we have a huge issue with intensity since many years, but i don't think it's a Barca problem per se.
It is a LaLiga problem that is exemplified perfectly in Barca, but you can see it in all LaLiga teams when they play in Europe.
The prototype on how a spanish team will win european competitions is by technical fluidity and quality. Never by intensity, never by fast transitions and moving the ball quickly over long distances.
Tempo is a different story. Recently there is no spanish side able to dictate the tempo, but if we go further back we will see of course Pep's Barca, the best team ever to completely and utterly dictate the tempo of every single game. However, even that team, when the tempo was fast, it was fast passing game in close spaces and in intricate triangles. It was never fast moving of the ball in transitioning over longer spaces.
-EV

Valverde will stay. Double is won, senior players don't have serious qualms with him and he is generally well liked by everyone.

Think he will learn from mistakes he made and we'll improved version next season.

Correct!
But, i will add, that how we will judge him next season is highly dependent on what players the board will buy him.
This season he had to build a team with Gomez,Vidal, Denis, Deulofeu as wingers, Raki-paulino in the md and an awefull out-of-form but not replaceable Suarez upfront.
Based on the material he had at his disposal, the football was not what fans wanted, but the results were impeccable
Now, the standards for EV's judgment next year will be different if he gets (let's say) i) Griezman, Verrati, De Ligt, ii) only Griezman, iii) only Arthur Melo
You cannot talk about football without taking into account the material he will be having to build this football

 

[Gaudi]

[MENTION=4451]Birdy[/MENTION]...I agree, that's way I keep mentioning our style more than tactics. Does it even allow us to play fast tempo and should we consider that or stay faithfull to this one and hope we can change it just enough to win again?
This is the reason I would coach that doesn't have Barca DNA, just to see some fresh ideas and how it works.

 

[Stoichkov1]

I don't understand how everyone can claim that a domestic double is a failure.

If you didn't realize the difference in quality between our players and Real Madrid's team is huge. Our bench is also the worst among top teams, we have Paulinho, André Gomes and Denis while they have Bale, Isco and Kovacic. Their FBs are comfortably better than ours too(Marcelo is one of the best FBs of all time while we have Sergi Roberto).

The match against Roma was bad but our midfield of weak and slow players gets dominated everytime we play away in CL. It happened under Lucho and it happens under Valverde. Valverde can instruct his players to play attacking football as much as he wants, if the players aren't good enough and the midfield loses control almost every match the only thing he can do is tell his players to protect the lead.

I would say that given the circumstances Valverde has overachieved and Zidane underachieved, and even if Real clearly is much worse than last year(Ronaldo is getting old and Modric's decline is now obvious) they're still the best team in the world quality-wise. They should have won another double this season.

 

[George_Costanza]

[MENTION=4451]Birdy[/MENTION]...I agree, that's way I keep mentioning our style more than tactics. Does it even allow us to play fast tempo and should we consider that or stay faithfull to this one and hope we can change it just enough to win again?
This is the reason I would coach that doesn't have Barca DNA, just to see some fresh ideas and how it works.

Which coach did this board hire after Tito that has Barca DNA? None! They tried so hard to shift away from Barcelona football style and philosophy.

Barca DNA for this board means someone who used to play or work in FC Barcelona. Playing Mourinho style football has nothing to do with Barcelona's DNA.

 

[Joan]

So from now on our midfield trio will be Busq, Raki and Coutinho?

I don't know what to think.

 

[Jägermeister]

Remove Messi for what? play 10 vs 11 or get a bench player? I mean I never get the argument of remove X and see what happens. If Messi wasn't there we would have gone for some replacement , played with different tactics and have ton of other different variables

I agree with that. In contrast to what many people claim that we would be nowhere with Messi, I am not as pessimistic. Right now if Messi has an average or bad game (and this happened a lot lately) he is more a drawback for our attack. Too often do we slow down quick attacks after winning the ball (or any attacking play we do) because our players just have to pass it to him instead of doing something else (Alba and Suarez are especially guilty of this). By doing so we are not only getting slower, but also we are very predictable and our opponents just have to closely mark Messi to shut our attack pretty much completely down.

Messi in good form and actually showing effort is still our best player, but when he is gone and we replace him with a world class player, maybe we won't be worse after all since we might become more unpredictable and faster in the final third.

 

[serghei]

I agree with that. In contrast to what many people claim that we would be nowhere with Messi, I am not as pessimistic. Right now if Messi has an average or bad game (and this happened a lot lately) he is more a drawback for our attack. Too often do we slow down quick attacks after winning the ball (or any attacking play we do) because our players just have to pass it to him instead of doing something else (Alba and Suarez are especially guilty of this). By doing so we are not only getting slower, but also we are very predictable and our opponents just have to closely mark Messi to shut our attack pretty much completely down.

Messi in good form and actually showing effort is still our best player, but when he is gone and we replace him with a world class player, maybe we won't be worse after all since we might become more unpredictable and faster in the final third.

True, I have no idea why people say that, considering we've been the best in the world before Messi became a big thing, in the times of Ronaldinho, Deco and Eto'o. Messi's very low workrate and intensity have become a big problem for us in CL. Replacing Messi would see us lose in some areas (creativity, dribbling ability etc.), but improve in others (whch happen to be the areas that caused the poor performances in the last 3 years in the QFs).

I think he'll be missed more in La Liga than in CL. In CL, he doesn't work hard enough to make a difference in the biggest games anymore.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

So from now on our midfield trio will be Busq, Raki and Coutinho?

I don't know what to think.

We are going to get killed defensively. I think Iniesta is better defensively than Coutinho.

 

[Stoichkov1]

True, I have no idea why people say that, considering we've been the best in the world before Messi became a big thing, in the times of Ronaldinho, Deco and Eto'o. Messi's very low workrate and intensity have become a big problem for us in CL. Replacing Messi would see us lose in some areas (creativity, dribbling ability etc.), but improve in others (whch happen to be the areas that caused the poor performances in the last 3 years in the QFs).

I think he'll be missed more in La Liga than in CL. In CL, he doesn't work hard enough to make a difference in the biggest games anymore.

We would only lose the top dribbler, top chance creator, top scorer and top assister in the team at the same time.

Our team isn't good enough to win the league or the CL without Messi. The only two players who can score goals at the moment are Messi and a 31 years old Suarez who is inconsistent as hell. When Messi isn't there anymore the other players won't be able to magically score goals

 

[BigBarcaBoy]

I agree with that. In contrast to what many people claim that we would be nowhere with Messi, I am not as pessimistic. Right now if Messi has an average or bad game (and this happened a lot lately) he is more a drawback for our attack. Too often do we slow down quick attacks after winning the ball (or any attacking play we do) because our players just have to pass it to him instead of doing something else (Alba and Suarez are especially guilty of this). By doing so we are not only getting slower, but also we are very predictable and our opponents just have to closely mark Messi to shut our attack pretty much completely down.

Messi in good form and actually showing effort is still our best player, but when he is gone and we replace him with a world class player, maybe we won't be worse after all since we might become more unpredictable and faster in the final third.

Be careful what you wish for

 

[BarçaBarça]

I don't understand how everyone can claim that a domestic double is a failure.

If you didn't realize the difference in quality between our players and Real Madrid's team is huge. Our bench is also the worst among top teams, we have Paulinho, André Gomes and Denis while they have Bale, Isco and Kovacic. Their FBs are comfortably better than ours too(Marcelo is one of the best FBs of all time while we have Sergi Roberto).

The match against Roma was bad but our midfield of weak and slow players gets dominated everytime we play away in CL. It happened under Lucho and it happens under Valverde. Valverde can instruct his players to play attacking football as much as he wants, if the players aren't good enough and the midfield loses control almost every match the only thing he can do is tell his players to protect the lead.

I would say that given the circumstances Valverde has overachieved and Zidane underachieved, and even if Real clearly is much worse than last year(Ronaldo is getting old and Modric's decline is now obvious) they're still the best team in the world quality-wise. They should have won another double this season.

You are quite right, but people just want to be angry because Real Madrid is winning. That means that no matter how bad circumstances/squad/conditions Valverde was handled he is a fraud if Real wins the CL for the third time and he did a great job if they don't.

I know that Reals results matter for us, but it is really cringeworthy that Valverde gets way more stick when Real has good results, and way more praise when they fail.
All in all: Half of this forum will call for his sacking if Real beats Bayern and Liverpool, while only about 1/5 will do if Real turns out trophy-less this season.