Ernesto Valverde - V1

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
I'm not here to get into a pissing match over Valverde. He is a nuanced man and I have nuanced opinions on him that I have outlined in the past. To summarize, he is a utilitarian and that isn't something that will mesh well with the idealists here. We are a romantic club but if we ever really want to be truly the greatest, at some point, we as a club might need to learn what it takes to win ugly sometimes. That is the dilemma: either we go on to surpass clubs like Bayern and Milan in terms of CLs by sometimes accepting we won't always be able to play Cruyffista football or we stick to our ideals and sometimes might have to watch our rivals dominate, playing very similar football to us.

I am very split on this which is why I have a split opinion on him. When it comes to style, his game reminds me a lot of Spain under Del Bosque: nothing flashy but consistent. My issues with Valverde is we aren't consistent enough for how he sets us up and if he can't deliver on that sort of style, I'd rather us play better football at the result of being more open. I typically want our style of football and club management (promotion of La Masia, developing young players, etc.) and while Valverde kinda does that, for me this season, I only care about the CL. So if his contribution to this club is teaching us how to win ugly sometimes (defending leads, not making mistakes) for a more virtuoso coach (Xavi, Pimienta), I'll take that and maybe people need to see Valverde more for what he is and less of what we want our manager to be. We don't always play terrible football under him, but we as fans have every right to be upset when the team isn't playing at the level required and the game yesterday was a good example of that.

That's what I really came to talk about here. He really needs to figure out how to transition our new signings more and what our MF looks like sans Busquets. We made some really bad turnovers in the first half until him and Cou came on and we gotta find a MF who can at least control a match and get us out of our own half smoothly. I've always wanted to see Roberto more in MF but man he did NOT look good in the pivot yesterday which was surprising and worrying to me. Raki struggles in that role as well so at this point, he needs to keep playing around until he finds something that works. In terms of a rotation MF without Busi or Cou, maybe Raki-Arthur-Arturo?

We need better performances than yesterday though, we would have lost that match had it not been for ter Stegen bailing our asses out.
 

Cule4life

The Culest
We are a romantic club but if we ever really want to be truly the greatest, at some point, we as a club might need to learn what it takes to win ugly sometimes.

But our squad is not built to play ugly. If Valverde was trying to build a fresh team to implement his vision i could maybe get behind him. But he is hellbent on sticking with the same old veteran players and is trying to impose conservative football on them.

It's like he can't play attractive football but also can't establish a new younger team. He has to do atleast one of them for fans to get behind him.
 

xXKonan

Senior Member
I could see why he wants to play Roberto at CM because he can provide the Workrate and energy and make some attacking runs.

But from my observation, Roberto isn't suited for the possession game as a CM, He is however suited more towards a direct style as a CM IMO. I feel at CM in a possession-based system he lacks the composure and his first touch isn't the greatest to truly thrive as a CM. At DM he can build up from the back and distribute the ball from down deep pretty well and at RB he has a lot more time to think on what to do and has open space in front of him to make it work.

It's weird that he can suit the possession game as a DM and RB but as a CM he's not. Something Valverde needs to look at more. The Midfield setup from the get-go just wasn't really going to work, it reminds me when we got blasted by Valverde's Bilbao 4-0 in 2015 with Rafinha-Masche-Roberto as our starting pair in the Supercup. Just three players who had three Dramtically different styles from possession based stuff.
 

Joan

Well-known member
Sure, somtimes you give 5 games to a player and you sense it would be the same if you give 50. Not sure why you have Demebele's name, as he has very good performances overall for the team. That's a risk you have to take. Not trusting young players because some might not end up good is what Valverde's cowardice is all about.

Which is why you have to have a good football mind. Zidane, Guardiola, Klopp and other great managers have great minds. If they insist with a player you give them the benefit of the doubt because they are great and basically know their shit. They are proven in this area. They have promoted players before and they basically became some sort of authority in this field of spotting and developing young players. Valverde has nothing of the sort. He is a good manager with poor player development skills. He is good at keeping his calm, and keeping the status quo. And if you have great players you will win some things with this approach, especially if the rivals in the league are horribly off the pace.
Make it sound as Valverde being terrible at developing is some kind of a fact. It's not. All we can say for sure is that so far he hasn't shown much. Valverde takes things slow, the best example of it being the process of integration. Even with big names. Underlined: EV has promoted players before. And developed them. Not googling, Laporte, Yeray Alvarez, Inaki Williams... His record with youth has been good before coming to Barca. That's why some fans (like [MENTION=19222]xXKonan[/MENTION]) feel let down. Concluding he's terrible at developing after the first season in the club (for a coach who takes time) is not possible. We basically have a squad full of youngsters, at the end of the season results should be clear. Malcom, Dembele, Lenglet, Alena, Arthur etc.
 

George_Costanza

Active member
Same way they think Madrid at the moment are doomed and toothless without one obvious Galactico to rely on all the time. Both fanbases don’t want to see nuance and any opinion of opposite nature regarding the rival team, i.e. Cules thinking Madrid fans underrate Benzema, is seen as a form of projecting the desire to see them fail. It’s unsurprising really. Both are wrong if you ask me.

Did you understand my post? I said Madrid fans think we are shit team. While Barca fans don't think Madrid is a shit team, quite the opposite actually. How is this the same way?
 

henias

New member
Started this forum golden boy semedo, And Roberto back in midfield

Except "this golden boy" gets dropped immediately all the time when the going gets tough. Apparently starting Semedo is something noble and big now.

Roberto and Pique has been questionable but never fail to not play the full 90 mins. I thought it's all about the results? Why would you care who plays anyway? :lol:

The same Gomes argument all over again: "At least he improved "a little" from last season so you shouldn't hate on him". That alone doesnt change the fact that he's a terrible player all around.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I'm not here to get into a pissing match over Valverde. He is a nuanced man and I have nuanced opinions on him that I have outlined in the past. To summarize, he is a utilitarian and that isn't something that will mesh well with the idealists here. We are a romantic club but if we ever really want to be truly the greatest, at some point, we as a club might need to learn what it takes to win ugly sometimes. That is the dilemma: either we go on to surpass clubs like Bayern and Milan in terms of CLs by sometimes accepting we won't always be able to play Cruyffista football or we stick to our ideals and sometimes might have to watch our rivals dominate, playing very similar football to us.

I am very split on this which is why I have a split opinion on him. When it comes to style, his game reminds me a lot of Spain under Del Bosque: nothing flashy but consistent. My issues with Valverde is we aren't consistent enough for how he sets us up and if he can't deliver on that sort of style, I'd rather us play better football at the result of being more open. I typically want our style of football and club management (promotion of La Masia, developing young players, etc.) and while Valverde kinda does that, for me this season, I only care about the CL. So if his contribution to this club is teaching us how to win ugly sometimes (defending leads, not making mistakes) for a more virtuoso coach (Xavi, Pimienta), I'll take that and maybe people need to see Valverde more for what he is and less of what we want our manager to be. We don't always play terrible football under him, but we as fans have every right to be upset when the team isn't playing at the level required and the game yesterday was a good example of that.

That's what I really came to talk about here. He really needs to figure out how to transition our new signings more and what our MF looks like sans Busquets. We made some really bad turnovers in the first half until him and Cou came on and we gotta find a MF who can at least control a match and get us out of our own half smoothly. I've always wanted to see Roberto more in MF but man he did NOT look good in the pivot yesterday which was surprising and worrying to me. Raki struggles in that role as well so at this point, he needs to keep playing around until he finds something that works. In terms of a rotation MF without Busi or Cou, maybe Raki-Arthur-Arturo?

We need better performances than yesterday though, we would have lost that match had it not been for ter Stegen bailing our asses out.

Curious as to what makes you think we can win ugly in the Champions League? We tried to do it once and got burned badly. Otherwise I think it's a fair assessment on Valverde. Roma defeat (as well as every away game we played in CL last season) throws doubt on Valverde knowing how to set up in the big games. Champions League seems to be a competition where the worst in Valverde's tactics is exposed.

So, being consistent against the smaller sides and racking up points in La Liga is only half the job. The other half is setting up nicely in the big games. And his approach in big games is all over the place.

Our away games in CL last season are:

1-0 with Sporting (own goal)
0-0 with Olympiakos
0-0 with Juventus
1-1 with Chelsea (gift from Chelsea)
0-3 with Roma.

Take a look at that and tell me if this guy can win the CL by not scoring away except if basically the opponent makes something stupid and gifts us a goal. In 5 away games in CL we must have created about 5-6 decent chances put together. That's hilariously bad. That's like a good chance every 90 mins.

That's completely unacceptable from a manager who has so much talent at his disposal.
 
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Mitchell1978

Senior Member
I think playing 4-2-3-1 (with Coutinho on the left, Messi behind Suarez and Dembele on the right) might be a better option then the 4-3-3 like barça is doing at the moment.

Might make the team more balanced and better structured.
 

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
Curious as to what makes you think we can win ugly in the Champions League? We tried to do it once and got burned badly. Otherwise I think it's a fair assessment on Valverde. Roma defeat (as well as every away game we played in CL last season) throws doubt on Valverde knowing how to set up in the big games. Champions League seems to be a competition where the worst in Valverde's tactics is exposed.

So, being consistent against the smaller sides and racking up points in La Liga is only half the job. The other half is setting up nicely in the big games. And his approach in big games is all over the place.

Our away games in CL last season are:

1-0 with Sporting (own goal)
0-0 with Olympiakos
0-0 with Juventus
1-1 with Chelsea (gift from Chelsea)
0-3 with Roma.

Take a look at that and tell me if this guy can win the CL by not scoring away except if basically the opponent makes something stupid and gifts us a goal. In 5 away games in CL we must have created about 5-6 decent chances put together. That's hilariously bad. That's like a good chance every 90 mins.

That's completely unacceptable from a manager who has so much talent at his disposal.

Yo! I’m not saying I’m fully convinced by his ability to really do this, especially in the CL. I want us to play more of our football currently as well especially since we have better players for it. For me, the problem isn’t the starting XI too much, it’s more finding the right rotation players for our key players.

In terms of CL, I also agree that our best approach is our football, not safe like he likes to play it. But, his idea of playing defensive away from home isn’t a bad one or new. I’d argue Lucho kinda did something similar except without a double-pivot. But between not picking the right 11 to fit his tactics to only a few players really being setup for it, that’s why we struggle under him now.

It’s less the idea, more the implementation. Plus, I still need to see how we are looking in the CL to have a good sample to judge off of.
 

Cule4life

The Culest
I think playing 4-2-3-1 (with Coutinho on the left, Messi behind Suarez and Dembele on the right) might be a better option then the 4-3-3 like barça is doing at the moment.

Might make the team more balanced and better structured.

Will leave a giant hole with Messi and Suarez not tracking back. That's just asking for trouble.
 

Horatio

You're welcome
Curious as to what makes you think we can win ugly in the Champions League? We tried to do it once and got burned badly. Otherwise I think it's a fair assessment on Valverde. Roma defeat (as well as every away game we played in CL last season) throws doubt on Valverde knowing how to set up in the big games. Champions League seems to be a competition where the worst in Valverde's tactics is exposed.

So, being consistent against the smaller sides and racking up points in La Liga is only half the job. The other half is setting up nicely in the big games. And his approach in big games is all over the place.

Our away games in CL last season are:

1-0 with Sporting (own goal)
0-0 with Olympiakos
0-0 with Juventus
1-1 with Chelsea (gift from Chelsea)
0-3 with Roma.

Take a look at that and tell me if this guy can win the CL by not scoring away except if basically the opponent makes something stupid and gifts us a goal. In 5 away games in CL we must have created about 5-6 decent chances put together. That's hilariously bad. That's like a good chance every 90 mins.

That's completely unacceptable from a manager who has so much talent at his disposal.

You do know our tactics changed since early 2017/2018.

I remember people being very content with those results considering our situation.
 

Joan

Well-known member
Except that his approach to big matches wasn't 'all over the place' last season. Barca struggling away in the CL is nothing new. He didn't improve there, that's true. Atletico (1-1, 1-0), Real (3-0, 2-2), Juventus (3-0) etc. Losing to Roma doesn't change it. He resorted to a more defensive approach in big matches (which worked well with Paulinho). This season it's going to be different.
 

Horatio

You're welcome
Except that his approach to big matches wasn't 'all over the place' last season. Barca struggling away in the CL is nothing new. He didn't improve there, that's true. Atletico (1-1, 1-0), Real (3-0, 2-2), Juventus (3-0) etc. Losing to Roma doesn't change it. He resorted to a more defensive setup in big matches (which worked well with Paulinho). This season it's going to be different.

ninja'd you.
 

El Gato

Villarato!
Did you understand my post? I said Madrid fans think we are shit team. While Barca fans don't think Madrid is a shit team, quite the opposite actually. How is this the same way?

Both fanbases currently think their team has bigger squad/management flaws than their opponent. That's why these guys think Barca is useless. You don't end up being a double champion by being shit when at least 2 other teams have rose to prominence last year. Equally, fans of both teams are inclined to see flaws of both teams as not being big deals.

Point being - don't go on a rival forum and take majority's view as correct. It usually isn't.

Except that his approach to big matches wasn't 'all over the place' last season. Barca struggling away in the CL is nothing new. He didn't improve there, that's true. Atletico (1-1, 1-0), Real (3-0, 2-2), Juventus (3-0) etc. Losing to Roma doesn't change it. He resorted to a more defensive approach in big matches (which worked well with Paulinho). This season it's going to be different.

^ pretty much this.

Barca has on average won about one away game in the knockouts out of 3 (if you include finals it would skew to 2) for nearly a decade. That's less than 50% winning record against top European sides. Nothing new and won't disappear with a touch of a magic wand. And advancing on draws vs Chelsea is the sort of thing great managers would have happen to them.
 
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Zidane82

Well-known member
There's no guarantee that Barca B players are good enough to play at Barca, so Valverde doesn't have time to develop them and at the same time win trophies, like every other manager in the other top clubs. At City Pep didn't develop jack shit for example.

The best manager for improving players and developing younger ones is Klopp .., virtually every player in the first team squad has improved dramatically
 

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