Ernesto Valverde - V1

[El Gato]

peddling an insane agenda about how managers are never at fault even Benitez at Madrid

"Peddling" Never at fault... Jesus. I'm not the one constantly referring to others as "defending" Valverde who you think we deem a "perfect" manager. The way you constantly try to simplify posts down to derail the argument is lovely:

a)

We have already given him a full season. Even the less bright of the fans would see the that he hasn't changed at all and is not showing any indications of doing so.

Yep. Given him a full season, he delivered a double and deserves another season long period to show what will change. It's a natural way of running things. No such manager gets a sack mid-season unless the results aren't there. One of the better comparisons would be Schuster. And Valverde's results don't give any reason to remove him.

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] can get all romantic about a demand to play beautiful football AND win, except this Barca team should focus on doing one thing at a time, not accomplish every damn thing possible at once like some fans here want it to.

b)

Mix of older and young players? That can be used to describe many teams in history.

Not a mix of older and younger players, a mix of new and old players that I've clearly named and you think it's all the same - it's not. A mix of seniors who lived in Madrid for years and pieces that were brand new that have no idea about the club philosophy. The ratio is actually worse in Barca than it was with Madrid that year and players are younger and therefore more difficult to get them to deliver when they're unproven at that level.

And no, he doesn't suck at promoting young guys. They train and develop with Barca squad as far as I know. Just because you don't see them on the pitch in early season, doesn't mean it's not happening. Same logic as that with statements of Ceballos and Llorente wasting their time in Madrid on the bench and in the stands under Zidane. Ridiculous.

 

[Stoichkov1]

[MENTION=5226]Wolfe[/MENTION] and [MENTION=18429]Morten[/MENTION] don't get the point. The point is that there are 3 requirements that fans demand from a Barca manager.

- Play entertaining attacking football with cohesion, energy and hunger to win
- Promote and develop Barca B players and the other young players we sign from other teams
- Win titles

Valverde sucks at the first 2 points, and while he won a big title, he was humiliated in the other big competition. This is why his credit is low among a lot of fans. Not that hard to grasp.

Barcelona in the last 20 years have never won the CL in any other way except playing great football and dominating their rivals. Don't think Valverde will be the first one to do it. Pragmatic football with low chance creation doesn't work at Barcelona. It goes against the ethos of the club.

There's no guarantee that Barca B players are good enough to play at Barca, so Valverde doesn't have time to develop them and at the same time win trophies, like every other manager in the other top clubs. At City Pep didn't develop jack shit for example.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] can get all romantic about a demand to play beautiful football AND win, except this Barca team should focus on doing one thing at a time, not accomplish every damn thing possible at once like some fans here want it to.

Nope. We should stick to our own style and identity. We are a romantic club and usually attract fans with an idealistic and romantic side to them. I get that because of the times we had to sacrifice some things, but playing attractive pleasing football should be non-negotiable.

I don't like Valverde. He won't make me change my mind by winning titles without changing his approach. But if he wins CL with his tactics he will impress me.

There's no guarantee that Barca B players are good enough to play at Barca, so Valverde doesn't have time to develop them and at the same time win trophies, like every other manager in the other top clubs. At City Pep didn't develop jack shit for example.

With a stance like that, no young player would ever play instead of experienced players because there's no guarantees they would make it. There were no guarantees Pedro and Busi would become amazing players. But they did, because they were trusted at the right time by the right person.

This is the right time, and we have the right players, but we lack the right person.

 

[El Gato]

Nope. We should stick to our own style and identity. We are a romantic club and usually attract fans with an idealistic and romantic side to them. I get that because of the times we had to sacrifice some things, but playing attractive pleasing football should be non-negotiable.

I don't like Valverde. He won't make me change my mind by winning titles without changing his approach. But if he wins CL with his tactics he will impress me.

If you had a manager candidate good enough at drilling the identity into young heads, maybe. Except there isn't one, not until Xavi gets the job. Hence you need the Van Gaal, Valverde-like commonplace foundation bricklayers without fancypants ideas. You sure could have gambled with Sarri types, but I get the feeling the board doesn't like to have to deal with their somewhat volatile nature.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Nope. We should stick to our own style and identity. We are a romantic club and usually attract fans with an idealistic and romantic side to them. I get that because of the times we had to sacrifice some things, but playing attractive pleasing football should be non-negotiable.

I don't like Valverde. He won't make me change my mind by winning titles without changing his approach. But if he wins CL with his tactics he will impress me.



With a stance like that, no young player would ever play instead of experienced players because there's no guarantees they would make it. There were no guarantees Pedro and Busi would become amazing players. But they did, because they were trusted at the right time by the right person.

This is the right time, and we have the right players, but we lack the right person.

Young players who are bought are different from the players from the academy. Busquets and Pedro made it but it's more luck than anything. And anyway Busquets took his chances and performed from day 1 unlike Semedo and others.

Players like Samper will never be good enough to play for Barca and if Valverde decides to give him playing time we'll only lose the match.

 

[serghei]

If you had a manager candidate good enough at drilling the identity into young heads, maybe. Except there isn't one, not until Xavi gets the job. Hence you need the Van Gaal, Valverde-like commonplace foundation bricklayers without fancypants ideas. You sure could have gambled with Sarri types, but I get the feeling the board doesn't like to have to deal with their somewhat volatile nature.

OK, some variations to our style have happened with managers even in recent years, and some have played more entertaining versions of possession based football than others (Valverde is at the bottom as far as entertaiment goes, even Tata is above him), but at least try to develop our younger players and leave something else behind you after you leave. Valverde only has a league title when rivals shot themselves in the foot with Madrid having one of the worst seasons internally as far as I can remember. Was a mess in CL after having a great draw in the QF.

So even his results need some context applied to them. It's not that clear that he gets results. Let's see him with some fierce competition in La Liga.

Young players who are bought are different from the players from the academy. Busquets and Pedro made it but it's more luck than anything. And anyway Busquets took his chances and performed from day 1 unlike Semedo and others.

Players like Samper will never be good enough to play for Barca and if Valverde decides to give him playing time we'll only lose the match.

There is an obvious quality surplus in Busquets favor when compared to Semedo, but Guardiola has a lot of credit for Busquets and Pedro making it very fast at Barcelona. It's not luck. It's great management. Guardiola simply knows how to deal with young players and how to develop them, while Valverde is at best mediocre at this chapter, and it's no wonder that he's mostly famous for dealing with the aging players.

 

[El Gato]

OK, some variations to our style have happened with managers even in recent years, and some have played more entertaining versions of possession based football than others (Valverde is at the bottom as far as entertaiment goes, even Tata is above him), but at least try to develop our younger players and leave something else behind you after you leave. Valverde only has a league title when rivals shot themselves in the foot with Madrid having one of the worst seasons internally as far as I can remember. Was a mess in CL after having a great draw in the QF.

So even his results need some context applied to them. It's not that clear that he gets results. Let's see him with some fierce competition in La Liga.

Apply context then - his first CL run as manager that wasn't free of mistakes but halted as a result of long-lived CL issues Barca is having away from home regardless of who is in charge. Otherwise almost faultless domestic campaign despite relative hesitance to introduce newbies. In a lot of ways basically a better Schuster 07/08 season where Rijkaard Barca had a mare.

With leaving something behind..
Problem with that rotation I find is that as a fanbase you're demanding of Semedo and Dembele to be given a start to "prove" their worth and sometimes players who don't perform once or twice when given a chance, end up not performing fifteen or twenty times, a bit like Danilo or Theo. Doesn't mean they're rubbish, but at this point in their careers some ought to be kept as role players until they have a breakthrough game. Sometimes they don't have it at all. It doesn't resolve anything to bench those who deserve it and play Barca B instead as some form of message. Capello alienated parts of his locker room by doing that in Madrid and only Beckham was given his final run back then because he stepped up in training. Not to mention there are probably more important reasons from the training ground as to why they're not getting game time.

 

[Stoichkov1]

There is an obvious quality surplus in Busquets favor when compared to Semedo, but Guardiola has a lot of credit for Busquets and Pedro making it very fast at Barcelona. It's not luck. It's great management. Guardiola simply knows how to deal with young players and how to develop them, while Valverde is at best mediocre at this chapter, and it's no wonder that he's mostly famous for dealing with the aging players.

So why Guardiola didn't develop anyone at Man City?

 

[serghei]

Apply context then - his first CL run as manager that wasn't free of mistakes but halted as a result of long-lived CL issues Barca is having away from home regardless of who is in charge. Otherwise almost faultless domestic campaign despite relative hesitance to introduce newbies. In a lot of ways basically a better Schuster 07/08 season where Rijkaard Barca had a mare.

With leaving something behind..
Problem with that rotation I find is that as a fanbase you're demanding of Semedo and Dembele to be given a start to "prove" their worth and sometimes players who don't perform once or twice when given a chance, end up not performing fifteen or twenty times, a bit like Danilo or Theo. Doesn't mean they're rubbish, but at this point in their careers some ought to be kept as role players until they have a breakthrough game. Sometimes they don't have it at all. Not to mention there are probably more important reasons from the training ground as to why they're not getting game time.

OK. About context:

Last 2 times before Valverde Barca has been kicked out from CL by an European force. A team that went on to play the final. With Valverde Barca was kicked out by Roma, after having luck at the draw, a team who didn't do anything of note in Europe prior to kicking out Barcelona. We probably won't have the same luck this season. Probably we will draw a much better team than Roma.

True. Very good league campaign but without having the pressure of a rival except some weeks when Atletico got relatively close (6 points with derby to go). The fact that Madrid were so poor in La Liga is not mostly down to Valverde. It was more a lack of motivation from Madrid, something which in the end probably led to Zidane leaving, as he sensed that the team wasn't working as hard and was as consistently focused as before. Basically, Zidane's third season (2 and a half) was more like Guardiola's 4th season, but with more luck in CL (and with major referee mistakes in almost every tie going in your favor). The same signs of degradation in player focus and determination. Guardiola's Barcelona was also much better in CL than domestically, but had a lot of bad luck vs Chelsea.

Sure, somtimes you give 5 games to a player and you sense it would be the same if you give 50. Not sure why you have Demebele's name, as he has very good performances overall for the team. That's a risk you have to take. Not trusting young players because some might not end up good is what Valverde's cowardice is all about.

Which is why you have to have a good football mind. Zidane, Guardiola, Klopp and other great managers have great minds. If they insist with a player you give them the benefit of the doubt because they are great and basically know their shit. They are proven in this area. They have promoted players before and they basically became some sort of authority in this field of spotting and developing young players. Valverde has nothing of the sort. He is a good manager with poor player development skills. He is good at keeping his calm, and keeping the status quo. And if you have great players you will win some things with this approach, especially if the rivals in the league are horribly off the pace.

 

[Raketa10]

It’s beyond me how can a true Barca fan defend Valverde? I get Morten and Wolfe who are supporters of Madrid but I trully don’t understand others.

 

[Garrus]

Hahahaha from "but...but results" to "but...but he rotated" to "but...but echo chamber"

The only ones here who want their ego stroked from an echo chamber are Valverde cheerleaders like you who'll put their fingers in their years to avoid listening to valid criticisms about their idol Valverde.

The only who is a junkie here is you who is addicted to peddling his holier than thou agenda and lording your superiority over others

By your logic people who want peace in the world and don't wanna listen about wars are also living in echo chambers. Those who want murderers to be punished and don't want to sympathize with murderers are also living in echo chambers.

And yes Morten is a self confessed troll and Wolfe has failed miserably to substantiate his trolling arguments by peddling an insane agenda about how managers are never at fault even Benitez at Madrid

Get it? When shit stinks most people will want to find ways to address it and not shut up and put up with it like you.

Oh dear lord....

You see, For someone to be in an echo-chamber, One has to choose to be in a place that is dominated by other people who effortlessly agree and reconfirm his/her pre-existing opinions and try to silence those who attempt oppose it, That’s what defines an echo-chamber.

This forum and thread is dominated by people who don’t like valverde nor share my opinions, And this is an objective fact, And all one need to reach it, Is have the basic skills, Of...........counting.

So, The fact i’m commenting on this thread and on this forum about valverde, Means by definition, That i’m not choosing to live in an echo chamber, Because if I wanted that, I wouldn’t be here.

As for you, The majority by far in here, Already share you’re pre-existing notions and narratives, Which of in of itself isn’t indicative of anything, It could be just a coincidence, But when we combine it with your signs and symptoms, Such as Irritablity of opposing opinions, and labeling those who disagree with you as “trolls”, “agendas”, “apologists”...etc, Well Then, We have a clear diagnosis of an echo-chamber inhabitant, And by the way these sign and symptoms of yours, Are an exact copy of what we see in other echo-chambers, Such as with SJW, They also label anyone against them as “trolls” with “agendas”,

And it’s very important to reaffirm the following point, All a person needs to figure out that this thread and forum is an echo-chamber of what exactly?, Is just having the ability to count, Preferably to 100 or more, Along with some simple two columns sorting ability, Of who against and for valverde.

So here I am, Completely pre-plexed, How does someone like you, Who lacks a basic skills we learn in kindergarten (The ability to count), Has zero awareness of frankly the embarrassing and cringy comments he’s producing, Then I remembered.

It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect

 

[Danic]

So garrus tell me.
Im a fan of barca for many years now. Im not a fan cause barca won many titles. Its more the way they played football.
I just can remember a time in all this years where i was bored more frome our games then now. So i have the right of being unsatisfied with valverdes work.
Yeah ofc we won the double. Honestly, i would rather lose lets say copa del ray but win laliga with playing nice entertaining football.
I dont say we should win every game with firework, we never did that. But now its the other way round.

There were several games last year like yesterday where we only won thanks to our opponent who made horrendous mistakes and not cause we played great ootball or deserved it.
Ofc there are those games where u play bad and stilll win. And u have to to win Laliga.
But in our case this happened way too often last season.

We are playing pretty much a 08/15(we say in germany for average) game right now. No pressing, rearely nice combinations, a long ball here and there. Shaky defense work. No real tactic at all.
How can someone be satisied with this? From a club like barcelona?
Im missing the whole fire in our team. Most players look so oversaturated. Everything is slow.
There is almost no movement in our front. We are always waiting until our opponent is completely organized again and then hope players like Cou get something going....

I tell you one thing. This whole building stands on a shaky ground.
Fow no we are saved by a great keeper, luck and players like Cou and messi.

 

[George_Costanza]

[MENTION=5226]Wolfe[/MENTION] and [MENTION=18429]Morten[/MENTION] don't get the point. .

Funny, reading Madrid forums in Reddit and bigsoccer, almost all of them agree we are a shit team, that rely on luck and fear factor in La Liga.

 

[El Gato]

Funny, reading Madrid forums in Reddit and bigsoccer, almost all of them agree we are a shit team, that rely on luck and fear factor in La Liga.

Same way they think Madrid at the moment are doomed and toothless without one obvious Galactico to rely on all the time. Both fanbases don’t want to see nuance and any opinion of opposite nature regarding the rival team, i.e. Cules thinking Madrid fans underrate Benzema, is seen as a form of projecting the desire to see them fail. It’s unsurprising really. Both are wrong if you ask me.

 

[Cule4life]

:Valverde gives 45 minute taste of some cules ‘rotation’ obsession, And like your typical weasels , they turn 180 degrees on what they been barking and demanding about for past 2 weeks when it doesn’t work out as they expected.

So you start the discussion with a petty insults like that but get offended when being called an apologist. Its clear from your tone you consider yourself a superior fan and want to lord your superiority over others who you consider as spoiled crybabies. Newsflash nobody gives a damn about your perception of an ideal fan.

I welcome opinions from everyone but not when they clearly have a holier than thou agenda like you.

You said "but but he rotated" and got wrecked when pointed out that nobody wanted him to rotate in this game

Then you started whining about echo chambers notwithstanding the fact people agreeing on a thing doesn't automatically make it an echo chamber. Basically the "but but results" argument has been smashed by the Roma result so Valverde defenders need to come up with a new defense which they haven't been able to.

You haven't come up with a single concrete argument to defend Valverde except throwing tantrums. So don't act surprised when nobody takes you seriously.

Wolfe defended Benitez's time at Madrid. If that doesn't prove to you he's a troll nothing will.