Ernesto Valverde - V1

[khaled_a_d]

The problem with Messi is complicated. To be honest, during all of his career at Barcelona he only had 1 world class manager. 1 world class manager in 13 years. He could have achieved even more under the right managers, and some of the bad habits he developed over the years wouldn't have been as present as today. Post Pep, except for some 10 months under Lucho when he really was part of an actual system, every manager we had deferred to Messi to an amazing degree, leading to him being basically above the system and tactics, which is kind of a cardinal sin when you play top opponents.

Bad management has plagued this team since Pep left. We had brief moments where the squad had a stuck of ego (after shit seasons) and bounced back a bit, until they sulked again under the obvious lack of leadership and competence from the sideline.

He had 3 world class managers (and Pep wasn't even his best according to him) and those 3 managers where here for 10 out of 13 years. Only one coach could be legitimately called a bad one (Tata)
Messi himself had problems with fitness since 2013, he became a bit slower and started walking, saying "it is better for him to save energy during games while playing 2 games per week is essential" to keep fit.
He is also a stubborn guy (which has its pros, but also of cons) and I doubt Lucho wanted him to go back playing in the middle. It is his own decision most likely and he is too powerful in this team for a manager even as strong as Lucho to go against it.
Messi has only accepted to stay away from goal when he lost WC and seen RM winning CL in 2014, and remember it was Messi in the 1st place whop asked Pep to play there more. The year after RM gets 3CL and losing his last chance to win WC as a star player he finally accepted to rest a bit more.

His bad habits cost him more in CL than any coach we have, in CL you have to fuckin run, no way around it. Messi has been always bad off the ball but during past years he has been a bit atrocious

But we're dreaming if we expect a manager who can't even get basic things right can manage quite a complicated player like Messi. Messi is a player with unique qualities, but also with clear weaknesses at this point in his career. You basically need to be smart enough to play him in a way that maximizes his skills and minimizes his weaknesses. That's what top coaching is about.

EV managed Messi well last year when he accepted he is 2nd striker and played 442, but it is a formation that is challenging in the CL, truth is no line up that has even been mentioned in this forum that hadn't ton of weaknesses
I don't like the fact that EV is back to the pseudo 433, it is neither his -EV- game and neither fit the players.
433 itself is impossible with Messi too.
This is always going to be huge challenge for any manager here, on paper he has greatest player in history but in reality he also will have a player that cripples the team tactics.
Will Messi change at the age of 32? I hope so for the sake of everyone, it isn't the right time for him to continue being stubborn. I hope next coach can speak to him and change him, but I won't bet on it

 

[FCBfan22]

I see that his no-rotation policy is working well. Only Pique and Busi left avalible out of the unbenchables...

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] Yeah pretty much. Messi is an extremely unique and talented player, said before that he should be treated as a puzzle piece rather than a centerpiece. Many managers failed to understand that, and keeps having the impression he's a player that will win you any games just bcos he's Messi. Pep managed to truly open the floodgates of his abilities, because we're talking about a player who is 5 foot 7, who doesnt have a lot of stamina to begin with. And unlocking Messi's potential is not just about him, it's about how the entire team operates. Their specific roles, movement, attacking patterns, ways to break down defences. Especially the front 3 and the midfield trio, inject pace and unpredictability, free up with movement and take off pressure so that Messi could burst into those acres of space and opponents will be done and dusted before they know it.

The difference wasn't as simple as just having Messi; the difference was Pep treated Messi as a normal player like any other in the team, motivated him, knew exactly how he's gonna exploit his insane talent in a team he built and orchestrated.

Messi still had the same weaknesses then, but the only difference there was someone there to truly maximise his potential so much so that his flaws seemed non-existent. Ever since Pep left, he just struggled so bad to truly explode in form and bring back the European silverware as well as the Ballon d or. Lucho managed to motivate him but after that lost the plot with Gomes and was riddled with Neymar tactical and ego issues. Now you have EV who doesnt even know how to use all 3 of his subs. Messi's career has been in a downward spiral until someone can come along and bring back who he was. But I'm afraid his best years were wasted by mediocre coaches and time is just ticking now.

I agree. I'm skeptical about Messi too. With the exception of 8 months under Luis Enrique when he played what he should've been playing and we saw a bit of that Alvessi crazyness we all knew, Messi has been used wrong ever since 2012. The blame is Messi's and the managers' that followed post Guardiola.

Problem is Messi has unlimited power at the team. If he doesn't want to change, then he'll continue to suck in CL against teams that easily block him due to his really poor off the ball movement, until he is 35 or so and retires.

We'll never know exactly how much the problem is Messi's stubborness or the questionable quality of the managers that followed post Pep, because there's no way Lucho, Tito, Tata and Valverde are world class managers. That's just nonsense imo. Lucho was good only half the time, and Valverde is a good manager for small teams but pretty average for big clubs, and his offensive tactics are pretty dire.

I see that his no-rotation policy is working well. Only Pique and Busi left avalible out of the unbenchables...

Give them a bit of time. In about 3 weeks they are going to suffer muscular problems too.

 

[George_Costanza]

He had 3 world class managers t

3 world class managers?

lol, I know Pep but maybe I had amentia for 6 years. Who are the other two world-class managers? Rijkaard, Lucho, or Tito? Non of them even close to being called a world class-manager by any sports fans or critics, but for you, even Fraudverde is a WC. Rijkaard was good but he is no WC manager.

 

[KingLeo10]

Rijkaard and Lucho are good managers but not world class. World class managers impose a philosophy on the team that is readily recognizable.

Rijkaard and Lucho's European success came in large part due to having a prime Ronaldinho, prime Eto'o, prime Suarez, prime Neymar (and of course Messi).

Tata and Tito don't even belong in the discussion, or EV for that matter.

 

[serghei]

Rijkaard and Lucho are good managers but not world class. World class managers impose a philosophy on the team that is readily recognizable.

Rijkaard and Lucho's European success came in large part due to having a prime Ronaldinho, prime Eto'o, prime Suarez, prime Neymar (and of course Messi).

Tata and Tito don't even belong in the discussion, or EV for that matter.

Lucho was only good as long as the team reached its peak form. Now he does get credit for this, of course, but Barca actually played well for about a year durng his 3 year tenure. Started really bad, then hit peak form, then turned to shit. No wonder he didn't have too many offers to coach a serious team during his 1 year off.

Luis Enrique and Valverde are nowhere near what is considered world class in terms of manager. When they get to a big team (other than Barca of course) and have great results then we can talk. As it stands, the only one with superb results outside Barcelona is Guardiola.

 

[God Serena]

Actually claiming Lucho, who's only success as a manager (IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER) comes exclusively from having MSN score 100+ goals in one season, is world class is hilarious.

He had a great peak with an unstoppable trio but with the squad he had we should have been much more dominant for much longer. We should have easily been able to at least compete for the UCL every season, but we didn't even threaten for it any season but the year we won it...

 

[MTL_Barca]

3 world class managers?

Pep, Valverde, and Valverde again because he's so amazing he should be mentioned twice.

 

[ini4ever]

Luis Enrique and Valverde are nowhere near what is considered world class in terms of manager. When they get to a big team (other than Barca of course) and have great results then we can talk. As it stands, the only one with superb results outside Barcelona is Guardiola.

Superb results ? nah mate he hasn't won any CL since he left Barca.

 

[serghei]

Superb results ? nah mate he hasn't won any CL since he left Barca.

CL is not everything. Winning the league playing great football is more than enough.

 

[ini4ever]

CL is not everything. Winning the league playing great football is more than enough.

I was being sarcastic anyways, ironically the folks saying that admitting they've got such high standard for Pep to consider him successful if he only win more CLs.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi is the best example to prove why Valverde is so bad at coaching:
1- If everyone is passing to Messi, a good coach would create a system where everyone would be included in the play, and players would know what they have to do with the ball, when to pass, where to pass, and not this tactic created by Valverde "move the ball higher on the pitch then find Messi and let him do the rest".
2- If Messi is walking and bla bla bla, a good coach would tell him to run or at least help to cover a small area in the middle of the pitch, and if Messi doesn't want to, then a good coach would tell him "look boy, you're the GOAT but we won games without you on the team, so, you're not unbenchable, you better start moving more".
3- The thing that most people complain is that Messi doesn't stick to the right wing. Again, like in number 2, a good coach would talk to him and convince that he can give much more to the team staying on the right wing, otherwise, he can rest a little bit on the bench.

Numerous NT coaches, Tata, Lucho, EV.
In the last 5-6 years, no one can motivate Messi.
He plays when he wants. He plays where he wants. He plays how he wants. He sulks when he wants, which is quite often at 0:1 against big teams, except against Rm, that is the only team against whom he is always motivated (CR7 rivalry?).

So, you guys can blame EV for everything.
But this part about Messi is crazy.

It is very questionable whether anyone can coach Messi anymore, tell him what to do and motivate him.
Messi does what he wants aged 31 and our only hope is that he will turn up at the (big) match and that he will be motivated.

You can't bench him, you can't give him any instructions.
A hierarchy in our club is:
1. a president
2. Messi
3. a coach
4. senior players
5. young players

Speak about yourself. Wenger will atleast bring good football. But yeah we can do better.

You have a weird obsession with coaches who play beautiful football and don't win any trophies.

 

[BBZ8800]

Anyway, I guess that EV could leave at the end of a season.

I would compare his situation with Dembele's.
They are both good, to an extent. And have lots of flaws.

EV is winning trophies for now, but fans are turning their back on him.
And from now, a pressure and whining will be bigger and bigger after every match, unless if we will start to play extremely well, which is unlikely.

So, from now on, a hate for EV will grow:
1. if a team will play bad=a hate will grow
2. if a team will play average=a hate will still grow
3. if a team will play awesome=for a few weeks a hate will stop and then it will grow again, and good results will be forgotten soon

The same is with Dembele.
He has reached a point of hate and pressure where only a crazy scenario can save him:
1. if he will play bad and/or show a bad attitude=a hate will grow
2. if he will play average=a hate will grow, since people are expecting more from a 150M signing
3. if he will play extremely good=a hate will stop for some time

In this moment, I don't see any of them here in 2019/20.
I am not against EV, like majority of you, but from a psychological point of view, a hate towards him is growing too fast and we will turn into a sinking ship.

Our players are not young, it is hard to expect that something radically will change and that we will fly and play beautiful.
Young signings (imo) are not good, and EV also don't like them.
So, we will see more or less the same until the end of a season, fans and media will get pissed and that's it.

Except if we'll win a CL, which I don't believe.

 

[Cule4life]

You have a weird obsession with coaches who play beautiful football and don't win any trophies.

Uh Wenger hasn't won trophies? Say what?

How many did your dear Ernie win before coming to Barca?

You really think Wenger can't win La liga like Ernie with Barca's squad and budget while playing much better football? If no you're even more hopeless than i thought.

CL is another matter for Wenger but again your dear Ernie isn't doing much better there is he?

I also said we can do better than Wenger (which you conveniently ignored) but currently Wenger will be better than Ernie as Ernie has no upside whatsoever

You have a weird obsession with coaches who play terrible football and fluke a trophy or two due to individual brilliance but get found out sooner or later

When did this false narrative of Ernie being an elite coach who shits out trophies playing conservative football start?

He had 3 world class managers

Yet another false narrative

So Valverde fanboys have evolved from apologism/deflections/whataboutism to revisionism to outright false narratives

 

[God Serena]

Ye another false narrative

So Valverde fanboys have evolved from apologism/deflections/whataboutism to outright false narratives

It's actually interesting to see the evolution of the crap khaled is saying in this thread for the sake of defending Valverde. He's usually such a good poster, but he seems to be trying to outdo himself after his "Roma were the 3rd best team in the tournament" argument that he stopped even trying to defend...