Leo_Messi
New member
Wonderful to win in the fashion that RM has won most of their CL's throughout their history in. Un Barça "a la Madrileña".
This "style" of play might be one of Valverde's biggest legacies in hindsight. If we could just transform that to the CL, we would win that trophy without a doubt.
This "style" of play might be one of Valverde's biggest legacies in hindsight. If we could just transform that to the CL, we would win that trophy without a doubt.
Sorin
Well-known member
Yeah, I said in a previous post that if I'd want to see stats I'll start following flashscore and be done with it. You have the score, shots, line-ups, possession etc. without all that awful distraction of watching the freaking match.
No, I watch football to unwind after a hard day/week at work and I want to watch a spectacle not some dull, boring everyone for themselves kind of football. If I want to be bored out of my mind I'll start watching C-Span. I mean, just look at the tie against RM. Was anyone in his right mind entertained by that awful display of football where RM played us off the park for the majority of the game? The fans that only care about the score or results are the ones who have a dick measuring contests with their mates and can brag about the win. Big fucking whoop.
serghei
Senior Member
I disagree about Valverde being a clear possession style manager, like a Van Gaal. To me, Valverde is clearly more on the pragmatic side. To be a premier possession manager you have to cope with risks and play on the front foot. We rarely play on the front foot in big games. He usually turns pragmatic against teams which can hurt us. When the going gets tough or he has something to lose, he'd constantly feel the need to drop back. That to me is telling. Even his use of possession is cautious as hell. When you manage Barcelona you clearly will have the ball most games, that doesn't mean you are a clear possession based manager. This is more a trait of the team. If you put Mourinho at Barcelona and he's not going to basically kick every ball out so we don't have possession vs Leganes and Levante. If we put Mourinho in charge, I am sure we'll still dominate possession 95% of the games we play, strictly because having possession is a given at Barcelona, at least against medium to smaller teams.
Valverde is a pragmatic manager without a fixed style imo. He'll go flippy-flappy with tactics if he feels that is more likely to make him win, problem is his judgment is off at key moments. He more or less believes in a pretty rigid way of playing, that is clear for me, because players do not move fluidly under him. Arthur came from a more fluid team possibly at Gremio, but you can see that his movements are not consistent with those of the players around him. He is more tiring himself out by being so active off the ball moving up, down, left right, to create space, because those brilliant things he does are not tracked by other players joining in to advance the play in other ways than just simply pass the ball wide, as we do 99% of the time under Valverde. Lol, he even draws criticism from that from some clueless pundits who don't see what we need is in fact more movement, not less of that. Arthur even looks funny moving constantly from place to place while most others are rigidly waiting to get the ball in their very predictable positions.
This obviously leads in possession to a pretty stale game with low creation of chances when individual performances aren't high. It's the same at Juventus, or Atletico when you watch them play a game against a very inferior team. When they have the ball more against lesser sides, they don't actually create chances very easy. You see the same patterns of play as with us, except they use crosses more often, while we pass the ball to Messi instead. Their crossing is what giving the ball to Messi is to us. Easy way to create a chance without working too much. Again, a common sign of pragmatism. They don't have a structured possession play and neither do we. We just pass the ball until someone somewhere in a bit of space makes a difference, either with a dribble, or a good cross, or some great shot. We only score more because we have gifted attackers who constantly turn normal attacking situations into chances to score, most notable Messi, Dembele and Suarez.
This style imo can work, and has been proven to be at the core of big European wins for various teams. But you need to have 2 things in order to do great in Europe with it. You need professional players who are physically tough, have great work rate, and don't make errors except very rarely. In the pragmatic game you need to make almost zero concessions. It's a game in which the opponent has to work hard to score you goals, which means no bad turnovers, no players who slack off and sleep instead of closing gaps, basically nothing that is a gift for the opponent. All of those great pragmatic managers created teams who just didn't gift you anything. Hard working teams, disciplined, with players that don't have very up and down form. Not brilliant players, but consistent, strong physically, very professional, disciplined and very good at following tactical plans to the letter. Many of the best players under Allegri, Mourinho, Simeone are like that. You don't see 4-5 top 10 Balloon d'Or nominees in their team.
The 2nd thing is that all pragmatic managers, in order to make the most out of not very resourceful teams in an attacking sense, need to have very very high leadership skills. All of them do not accept players going outside their tactics, or poor discipline, because they know that the whole foundation of their teams is based exactly on that. Atletico without discipline and will, huge atmosphere from their fans at home, and tenacity are nothing in Europe. Because of this, they like older players, not naive young players who are too childish to see football as more rigor than playfulness. Young players do not apply very well to a rather militaristic style of coaching, that very pragmatic managers are known to often impose on their teams.
So, my issue with Valverde is that he doesn't really have any of the big weapons a great pragmatic manager usually has in his bag of tricks. He's not a leader, he's not a very strong voice that everybody is respecting in the team. He defers and panders to his main star players, giving them way too much power in the team, doesn't impose a meritocracy policy in which those who slack off are punished. He minimizes worrying signs, instead of letting his players know that the game is not working and they need to improve pronto. His way of being as a person first and foremost is more likely to cause complacency, than to keep an environment of hard work and discipline all the way through the hardest months in march, april and may. Those things make him unlikely to apply a pragmatic style and win big with it, because he is always likely to crack under pressure. Lacks the charisma and leader-like personality to make players follow him and work very hard. Lacks the courage to make hard decisions that help the team, even if those might upset some star players. Is an overall soft presence in the team and on the sidelines. Looks clueless once a game is likely to fall off track and he shows a kind of helplessness that is really bad. All those things go against the image of a successful pragmatic manager.
For me, he's just decent at most things, without having any area that he really shines in. Not particularly pleasant style, doesn't trust or develop young players well, doesn't show courage or any kind of boldness, has a very short term vision which isn't likely to lead to a new team in the truest sense of the word being created in his term etc.
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serghei
Senior Member
Another thing to note is that so far Valverde hasn't brought us any result we didn't win previously got while playing much better football under other managers. We've been winning La Ligas and Copas regularly for years. So why the hell am I supposed to accept a more defensive minded manager if he's crap in Champions League? Supporting a more defensive minded manager who doesn't do anything to stop us from conceding goals in CL? Makes no sense. I'd understand it if we somehow manage to defend great in CL. Would say, yea man, shame we're not playing great football, but at least we're solid defensively in Europe. But no. Clearly not the case when likes of Roma fill up your net with goals and other teams create loads of chances to score. Chelsea had dozens of chances before too. Hit the woodwork like 4 times, plus other chances.
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George_Costanza
Active member
Sabella is the best pragmatic manager I have seen in recent years, he had a successful Argentina WCQ and WC 2014 campaign. If Barto&co loves pragmatic football then they should consider someone who is good at it and can work with Messi. I do not advocate of this system but only a few pragmatic managers can work with a team like Barcelona and EV not one of them.
serghei
Senior Member
Sabella's Argentina is actually pretty darn close to how Simeone's Argentina would look like. No free balls, no gifts, very cohesive and united teams who work for the same purpose. Too bad their attackers failed on what is also a pretty important trait of a highly successful pragmatic team: being clinical with your chances.
To be fair to Valverde, we kind of show this trait. We were pretty clinical with our chances many times under him, which is why we have had many wins without playing too well or creating too much. The main problems is that we create very very few chances even when we have a lot of the ball. Which is clearly showing we don't know how to play on the front foot and turn possession into chances to score, which is basically what Barca is all about ideally. Usually and ironically, we start to have more chances when we are more sloppy with our passes.
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Aryagorn
Improvin' Perfection!!
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Vidal's sub was great, but Coutinho is useless for the last 15 minutes. He adds nothing, just loses possession. Vidal in the other hand, brilliant..
Valverde made some tactical changes and it helped to neutralize Real's left side. Good job!
Valverde made some tactical changes and it helped to neutralize Real's left side. Good job!
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