Messigician
Senior Member
Change the title back to retardo, it is good luck lol
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Honest question, but weren't you one of those who believed that league titles mean more than CL?
serghei
Senior Member
Yep. Doesn't mean I accept being embarassed in CL every year. Or else I'd go support PSG
. I believe the league is the most important. But most decent managers in La Liga would be able to win a league title against a poor Madrid and Atletico who are a Cup team mostly. You can't be called a great manager for winning the league at Barcelona with these players. We've cruised to 100 points in 2012-13 with Jordi Roura managing the team for quite a while.
Our season by season objective is winning the league, challenging for CL. Copa del Rey is a welcome addition but can't be a singular objective in a season by season basis.
Valverde so far did not show he has built a team which can win beat the best teams in CL. Although our squad is more than enough for that.
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Leo_Messi
New member
The league is usually always the most important trophy to win and the tournament where more than 2/3 of the games each season are played in. It is a tournament where every team plays against the same opponents twice, home and away from home. Winning the league is always the biggest testament of ones consistency. The CL is where most of the money is due to the publicity and the tournament that has the most hype surrounding it. In reality it is a knockout competition like any other. It only takes 1 bad performance (even against an inferior team on paper and in practice) to go out. It is way harder to compete in for teams like ours who are repeatedly competing for and regularly winning our own domestic league (that happens to be the strongest in the world and most successful in Europe in terms of trophies won) and the CdR which his only second in importance and age to the FA Cup in terms of domestic cups in Europe.
That and RM winning the CL 3 teams in a row and 4 times in 5 years (while being pathetic in the domestic competitions in that same 5 time period with only 1 league win and 1 CdR win) has made our fans and players desperate for CL success despite us actually winning the CL in 2015 and not 10-15 years ago as it would sound like from some. The same CL that we have won 4 times in the past 13 seasons. When we won it in 2015 we had won the CL 4 times in 10 years. Not normal by any standards. The CL Is also RM's favorite competition and what they historically do the best in due to their more pragmatic style historically and the fact that they are NEVER competing on all 3 fronts and often not even the league, hence why they have won only 3 of their 13 (!) CL's in seasons where they have also won the league. That is no a coincidence. That includes the 1950's there they won almost half of their 13 CL's.
Obviously given those circumstances, winning the CL is more "important" this season but you can never discount the league. Due to us winning the league 8 times in 11 years, (yes, I believe that we will win this season as well), we take it for granted. Similarly with all of our CdR wins.
There was a time when we expected a minimum CL-semifinal in the CL as well and took it for granted.
Anyway I believe that we can win the CL this season although it requires for us (the players) to remove that mental stumbling block that they have in the CL where we are going out (in the past 3 years and in a pathetic fashion too) against inferior teams on paper and in practice while we have no problems dominating RM (completely) in the two domestic tournaments in the same period as well as Atlético who have been one of the best performing teams in the CL as well in the past 5 seasons. That and Valverde not committing similar tactical mistakes as last year and thinking that we can turn into a Atlético and just sit back and absorb pressure against the likes of PSG and Man City in the CL. The players also have a great responsibility for those pathetic displays in the CL in the past 3 seasons and the fashion that we have existed the CL in the past 3 years. Our away form in the CL is in particular pathetic and hard to explain rationally if not for the mental part again. Best exemplified recently where we did not manage to defeat a Lyon team despite 20-25 shots on goal and being the clearly superior team without having a great day mind you.
Yep. Doesn't mean I accept being embarassed in CL every year. Or else I'd go support PSG
I believe the league is the most important. But most decent managers in La Liga would be able to win a league title against a poor Madrid and Atletico who are a Cup team mostly. You can't be called a great manager for winning the league at Barcelona with these players. We've cruised to 100 points in 2012-13 with Jordi Roura managing the team for quite a while.
Our season by season objective is winning the league, challenging for CL. Copa del Rey is a welcome addition but can't be a singular objective in a season by season basis.
Valverde so far did not show he has built a team which can win beat the best teams in CL. Although our squad is more than enough for that.
Exactly.
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Yep. Doesn't mean I accept being embarassed in CL every year. Or else I'd go support PSG
I believe the league is the most important. But most decent managers in La Liga would be able to win a league title against a poor Madrid and Atletico who are a Cup team mostly. You can't be called a great manager for winning the league at Barcelona with these players. We've cruised to 100 points in 2012-13 with Jordi Roura managing the team for quite a while.
Our season by season objective is winning the league, challenging for CL. Copa del Rey is a welcome addition but can't be a singular objective in a season by season basis.
Valverde so far did not show he has built a team which can win beat the best teams in CL. Although our squad is more than enough for that.
Not entirely agreeing but you are having a point.
Don't think he is great manager either, good manager is more appropriate description
Don't believe we have the squad to win CL tbh, quit honestly I feel we are going out against Lyon although it is more of a pessimistic feeling than anything else.
The thing about CL is that the one factor you always need is a top notch frontline. You can't win without one.
Look at evert CL winner, all of them had great attack with at least one of the world best goal scorer and at least another decent one.
RM had BBC to carry them, we had MSN, Bayern had Robbery, Chelsea had Drogba. we had MVP & Messi/Henry/Eto while Inter had Milito & Eto and the least goes on and on.
Sure you can't have another bad line, like Juve who ignored midfield. But exceptional attack is just a must.
Right now Coutinho is a ghost, Malcom is decent sub at best, KPB is lol and then we have our Dembele/Suarez/Messi
Messi has been shit in QF for quit some time, but this season he is also showing more declining signs as he is not as consistent domestically as usual. He isn't same player he was IMHO and then you factor he is returning to NT at most important part of the year
Suarez? he has been shit in CL for 4 years now, his declining is even worse than ever. he is showing in way less games now.
Dembele? inconsistent although improving. still a bit weird case as he scores more when he plays worse.
I don't see us winning CL or going far unless 2 of those 3 shows up big time in every game. And don't like our chances with that
This is probably why I want a guy like Felix badly, a player who provides bag of goals is the most pressing need for this team at the moment. It can be the difference between continuing to be elite or suffering from a serious set back when Messi declines/move
And we even have other problems, like what if Alba gets injured? Busquets & Pique inconsistent form and Arthur being almost irreplaceable atm.
serghei
Senior Member
I think you are rather pessimistic. There's no way we go out at home vs Lyon. The attacking output we have at home is huge. Think about it. We played like shit vs Chelsea and Roma at home last year and scored 7 goals. And we're talking about better teams than Lyon. Lyon would have to play the defensive game of their lives to have us scoring fewer than 2 goals at minimum.
We don't create many chances, not because we don't have a great attack. It's because we are playing very very cautiously, with protecting the defense in mind. We have sacrificed scoring more goals, for more safety in defense. Let's see if it works. The problem is we apply this tactic vs teams we'd have more chances to beat by going more attacking. Lyon is a good example. Playing way too cautiously against them at home is not a very good plan.
All teams look rather tired. Very low scoring games so far in CL. I'd say every team is kind of struggling to create many chances in CL, which is why scores are rather balanced.
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Leo_Messi
New member
I stopped making any predictions in the CL ages ago considering that it is one of the most unpredictable tournaments out there. Some absurd winners throughout the ages. RM being the perfect example in recent years. A joke that they won the CL in 2015-16 and last year. List is very long.
Football is strange. We played a relatively decent game against Lyon away from home and had 20-25 shot on goals. Should have scored at least 3-4 goals. Ended up scoring 0. On the other hand last year we had an awful game against Chelsea away from home (offensively) and pretty much scored on our only real chance or at least one of the few. Giving us a better result before the return leg at the Camp Nou against a superior team (Chelsea) to this Lyon.
Similarly that 4-1 victory against Roma at home. Talk about a result that lied. Or most recently our 0-3 win against RM.
What we need to make a run for the CL is simple. Great and consistent collective performances and for our most crucial players to lead from the front. No mental blockages or mental midget performances. No apathetic performances, running without the ball (especially the front three), Messi stepping up and not having one of those frustrating games where he is walking all the time, the team not looking for Messi nonstop and thus making us incredibly predictable, Suárez scoring in the knockout stage of the CL for once and scoring on our chances. That and luck. Like almost every winner in particular RM of recent years.
Had Gomes for instance scored on that big chance that he had when the game was tied against QSG away (before the team imploded) or had Iniesta tied the game and scored on his 100% chance against Juve away with us 1-0 down, those ties could have ended entirely differently. Small margins.
If Lyon somehow manages a lucky draw, we will be cursing Dembélé, Suárez and Messi for their many missed chances in Lyon.
If the above is not a proof that the league title should be the priority and the CL the cherry on top of it (a big one, admirably), I don't know what will. You can't plan on winning the CL. It's a freaking knockout competition where you can end up having runs like ours during the 2014-15 season where we only played against league champions or the run that RM had the year after. That is why we need consistency and great league performances. In particular a club like ours that cannot win a CL while playing terrible in the league like RM has been doing throughout their history. Either we win by being clearly superior/well above average compared to our opponents or we end up failing in the CL. There is reason why he have yet to win a CL without winning the league the same season. Club history matters. it is being proven time and time again.
I cannot see us win in the style of RM. Maybe with Valverde this year but that is a huge maybe.
Football is strange. We played a relatively decent game against Lyon away from home and had 20-25 shot on goals. Should have scored at least 3-4 goals. Ended up scoring 0. On the other hand last year we had an awful game against Chelsea away from home (offensively) and pretty much scored on our only real chance or at least one of the few. Giving us a better result before the return leg at the Camp Nou against a superior team (Chelsea) to this Lyon.
Similarly that 4-1 victory against Roma at home. Talk about a result that lied. Or most recently our 0-3 win against RM.
What we need to make a run for the CL is simple. Great and consistent collective performances and for our most crucial players to lead from the front. No mental blockages or mental midget performances. No apathetic performances, running without the ball (especially the front three), Messi stepping up and not having one of those frustrating games where he is walking all the time, the team not looking for Messi nonstop and thus making us incredibly predictable, Suárez scoring in the knockout stage of the CL for once and scoring on our chances. That and luck. Like almost every winner in particular RM of recent years.
Had Gomes for instance scored on that big chance that he had when the game was tied against QSG away (before the team imploded) or had Iniesta tied the game and scored on his 100% chance against Juve away with us 1-0 down, those ties could have ended entirely differently. Small margins.
If Lyon somehow manages a lucky draw, we will be cursing Dembélé, Suárez and Messi for their many missed chances in Lyon.
If the above is not a proof that the league title should be the priority and the CL the cherry on top of it (a big one, admirably), I don't know what will. You can't plan on winning the CL. It's a freaking knockout competition where you can end up having runs like ours during the 2014-15 season where we only played against league champions or the run that RM had the year after. That is why we need consistency and great league performances. In particular a club like ours that cannot win a CL while playing terrible in the league like RM has been doing throughout their history. Either we win by being clearly superior/well above average compared to our opponents or we end up failing in the CL. There is reason why he have yet to win a CL without winning the league the same season. Club history matters. it is being proven time and time again.
I cannot see us win in the style of RM. Maybe with Valverde this year but that is a huge maybe.
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khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Regarding Lyon game, yes I said it myself that I am pessimistic
Regarding our hopes in general, our attack is below the required level. Yes we are cautious but our attackers aren't consistent anymore. That happened for many years now actually and happened way too much during the season to not see the performance of everyone of them
Leo_Messi
New member
Sure, our frontline is no longer what it once was (MSN for instance) but I struggle to find better frontlines out there. Juve with a 33 year old Mandzukic, 34 year old Ronaldo and an inconsistent and frankly hyped Dybala? Atlético with a 30 year old Costa (often injured), Griezmann and a Morata that has been a shadow of himself for a very long time? A RM frontline consisting of freaking Vinicius, Benzema and Bale? Bayern with an old Lewandowski and declining Müller? Not even going to mention Robben and Ribéry who have been past it for ages. Or Gnabry or Coman (always injured). Tottenham? Kane and who else?
QSG is the only team that arguably have a similar frontline. Neymar is injured, maybe out for the reminder of the season and who knows which form he will be in once he returns, Cavani (similar to Suárez if not worse) and Mbappé. Or is it City's attack with Sane, Sterling, Gabriel Jesus and an old and declining Agüero who offers nothing else than goals nowadays?
Honestly speaking I can only see QSG being at our level attacking wise (front trio). And maybe Man City as an offensive collective but that has more to do with Pep rather than their individual brilliance.
Forgot Liverpool.
Is a Firmino, Saleh and Mané trio (their substitutes included) really better than what we have to show for? I highly doubt that. Even if they were, Liverpool are not a better collective or better as a team.
We have a €160 million signing (Coutinho) on the bench. Malcom (one of the more impressive offensive players in Ligue 1 last season) as well. Valverde is to blame for not having made them work at all. While Coutinho has not given him any favors it is his job to make him fit in the team. We cannot have a substitute worth this much in his best age moreover sitting on the bench. Valverde is similarly to blame (even more so) for totally neglecting and destroying Malcom's career this season.
It is also Valverde's fault that the likes of Suárez and Messi are not resting more and it will be his fault if they won't rest in the league before crucial CL ties should we make it past Lyon.
Likewise had the board managed to loan someone in the mould of Llorente or Falcao instead of the absolute joke that KPB is, we would have an even more impressive attack on paper and options and might actually have been able to rest a recently turned 32 year old Suárez who suffers from recurring knee pains.
Nobody is going to convince me that our attack is what will prevent us from winning the CL this season or that we cannot win the CL with such an attack. That's absurd.
You mentioned Chelsea having a great attack when they won in 2012. Look their attack up again. Other than a 34 (!) old Drogba they had very little firepower. It was a joke that they won that season as well as we should have and would have won it had we managed to get past them in that absurd CL-semifinal that year.
That is CL in a nutshell for you. A team like Chelsea winning the CL which ended, what 8th or 10th in the league that season and which would have no chance of winning any CL league (league format) over 38 games. Not even 1 in a billion chance of winning such a CL.
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serghei
Senior Member
We have scored more goals this season than:
Madrid - by far
Atletico - by even more
Liverpool - by a few
Juventus - by far
Bayern - by far
Only teams who have scored more are PSG - but they play against lower level teams, and City - who are indeed better than us going forward.
The only team who have proven to better at attacking than us is Manchester City.
Based on what is our attack bellow the required level? What is the metric here in making this more than a personal observation based on a hunch? We consistently score more goals than our rivals, Atletico and Madrid, one who won 4 of the last 5 CLs, and one who made 2 finals in the last 4 years.
Doesn't make sense tbh.
Our no1 issue in CL is showing up unprepared in key away games. I mean both physically, mentally, and tactically. Simply getting beat by teams who prepared the game better than us, were fitter, and simply gave more on the pitch in that respective night.
Madrid did this too several times. Away vs Dortmund in 2014, almost bottled a 3-0 lead, but Mikihytarian missed several sitters almost in a horrible game for him. Away vs Wolfsburg in 2016. Managed to escape that because Ronaldo showed up big time in the return leg and the Germans bottled it. Home vs Schalke in 2015. Managed to luckly escape that too. Home vs Juventus in 2018. Managed to escape it through a dodgy pen.
There are about 3 possible Roma-like disasters for them, 1 in almost each CL winning campaign. Lucky enough to survive them all.
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Leo_Messi
New member
Man City are arguably better not because of their better individual brilliance or talent upfront but because they have a better and more cohesive offensive system in place (do we have any offensive system other than giving Messi the ball and Alba making runs? (obviously I simplified that but people should get the point) which is courtesy of the best manager in the world in Pep.
Individually they are not better and have shown far less in the CL in recent years that we have. People often forget it but other than RM no other team than us have actually won the CL since 2014 (since it has been fashionable to use this time period due to RM's CL wins).
Our CL struggles in recent seasons (last 3 seasons) are down to the mental element of the game and some poor tactical choices from the likes of Lucho and Valverde. The 3-0 loss against Roma and the 3-0 loss against Juve are perfect examples of this. Implementing a new tactical system with Mathieu against Juve away from home (where they are notoriously strong) and that dreadful Roma game (too many tactical mistakes to mention but not playing Dembélé with Roma pressing this high and leaving so much space is one of the major tactical faults of Valverde) are perfect examples of this.
That and our leader (Messi) not showing what he can show and despite that our team looking for him nonstop. A bit like Argentina that expect him to do everything while that is impossible at this level. Once or twice (requires a good team performance to win always) yes but not continuously and not against elite teams away from home. Football is not basketball or handball. Messi while insanely talented and insanely good (still) is no longer in his prime. You can't defeat father time. He will turn 32 in a few months time. No longer as quick, agile or as insane a dribbler as he once was despite still being the best out there. We can't use the same old "system" of looking for him nonstop in knockout games in the CL against elite opponents. In particular away from home. We need to offer more as a team and that is on everyone and not just Messi. Messi is better when our collective is better and his teammates. It's naturally all related.
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serghei
Senior Member
All true, sure.
EdmondDantes
New member
Not sure if it's been brought up here but Valverde decided to give the entire squad two unplanned days off. The lads are back in training Tuesday evening (18:00).
Rest your legs, dip yourselves in a jacuzzi and bang your respective missus, you Clasico winning bastards. We'll need you for Lyon's scalp.
Rest your legs, dip yourselves in a jacuzzi and bang your respective missus, you Clasico winning bastards. We'll need you for Lyon's scalp.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Long story short, I think all of Liverpool, City & PSG has better attack. All in their primes as a player too while our players are either developing or in their 30's. Only Cavani & Aguero are over 30 in all 3 teams.
We talked about Coutinho in depth before and not interested in going off-topic here. But I don't think coach has to be blamed for him. I refused to blame Pep on Hleb decline, or Lucho on Arda decline and in both cases I was proved right. Coutinho is on a bigger scale of declining, beyond fit or bad coaching. Something is happening to the guy, whether it is in his personal life like Hleb or can't handle pressure (Gomes) or achieved his dreams (Arda) I don't like the whole coach excuse.
Drogba was having great year, he was the guy who they could rely onto when they needed a goal. Basically was the one winning them the trophy with Cech.
Both Messi and Suarez can turn on and be that guy, that is undeniable. But when was the last time they did? Messi has played his worst football during the season during our CL QF games. 3 years, 2 coaches, same poor performance. He has a lot to blame himself and this year he isn't doing himself any favor when he decides to go back to Argentina NT in March?!!
So yes, Messi and Suarez can turn on in CL but all the odds are against that tbh.
Based on what? How many goals did Messi & Suarez score in past 3 QF in CL? Is this really a hunch or a stat?
Who is our top scorers? Messi with 33, Suarez with 19, Dembele with 12 & Coutinho with 8.
When our top 2 -by far- scorers has well documented history of going awol in past 3 years that is more than a personal observation based on a hunch
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