Ernesto Valverde - V1

[George_Costanza]

Not sure if it's been brought up here but Valverde decided to give the entire squad two unplanned days off. The lads are back in training Tuesday evening (18:00).


Rest your legs, dip yourselves in a jacuzzi and bang your respective missus, you Clasico winning bastards. We'll need you for Lyon's scalp.

Jacuzzi? It's all about ice bath my friend, so many benefits for recovery, I ice bath it twice a week.

 

[Joan]

One from your own collection?

 

[Cule4life]

Where them haters at?

One Arizona Scott is enough for this forum.

 

[Toecrusher]

Still invites pressure way too much. Other than it being completely against the Barca ethos, sooner or later we will pay for it in a big game.

 

[serghei]

Based on what? How many goals did Messi & Suarez score in past 3 QF in CL? Is this really a hunch or a stat?
Who is our top scorers? Messi with 33, Suarez with 19, Dembele with 12 & Coutinho with 8.
When our top 2 -by far- scorers has well documented history of going awol in past 3 years that is more than a personal observation based on a hunch

Well, that's thing we're trying to correct, isn't it? It is the manager's job to make sure the best team in Spain show it in Europe. Manager and players need to get their shit together and put in performances like those vs Atletico and Madrid in Europe as well.

Doesn't make sense to attribute our lack of success in Europe with 'the attack is not good enough'. We have more than enough evidence to suggest we are more of a case of a great team playing underwhelming in Europe.

Reasons could be diverse. Combination of:

- average manager without experience in CL
- lack of proper rotations or proper use of the whole squad during tough months
- lack of motivation from players having won too much
- arrogance and undervaluing opponents who clearly can hurt you if showing up poorly
- lack of intensity at times

If you have a combinations of multiple factors like we do, and you do jack shit to correct them when they obviously appear, than yes, we could tank again. This is not because our attack isn't good, come on... Player quality was never an issue for us, as it's not for Madrid, in spite of their incredibly poor performances at times. The resources Barca and Madrid have basically make player quality a non-issue. It is the inability to make the best use of the players that is lacking. This is often the cause of not good enough management, be it from manager, or even the board.

We have basically the same issues as Madrid, only they have a historical advantage in CL, being a competition they value so much. So their complacency and arrogance is a lot more obvious in La Liga and Copa.

Sorry, but the bottom line is if Valverde can't make the players connect and play in CL with focus and determination, he can't manage this team. The manager simply is the most responsible for the systemic failures of a team, and the failures in CL have been from the whole team, they weren't individual mistakes. We simply showed up unprepared for games of that importance. It's basically what makes the manager job very important. If management was about fielding 11 players and making some subs and that's it, everyone could do it.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Long story short, I think all of Liverpool, City & PSG has better attack. All in their primes as a player too while our players are either developing or in their 30's. Only Cavani & Aguero are over 30 in all 3 teams.


We talked about Coutinho in depth before and not interested in going off-topic here. But I don't think coach has to be blamed for him. I refused to blame Pep on Hleb decline, or Lucho on Arda decline and in both cases I was proved right. Coutinho is on a bigger scale of declining, beyond fit or bad coaching. Something is happening to the guy, whether it is in his personal life like Hleb or can't handle pressure (Gomes) or achieved his dreams (Arda) I don't like the whole coach excuse.



Drogba was having great year, he was the guy who they could rely onto when they needed a goal. Basically was the one winning them the trophy with Cech.
Both Messi and Suarez can turn on and be that guy, that is undeniable. But when was the last time they did? Messi has played his worst football during the season during our CL QF games. 3 years, 2 coaches, same poor performance. He has a lot to blame himself and this year he isn't doing himself any favor when he decides to go back to Argentina NT in March?!!
So yes, Messi and Suarez can turn on in CL but all the odds are against that tbh.

Fair enough. Can't say that I agree with the exception of a fit PSG frontline which is currently not the case. That is arguable too and a very close call. Liverpool and Man City, I don't see it. They have a more cohesive collective offensively speaking (a genuine system in place for the third season running for both of them) which is unlike what we have with Valverde almost 2 seasons into his managerial career here.

If you noticed, I also wrote that Coutinho is to blame as well. However it is really unexplainable (even though Coutinho was never my favorite and I made it clear already back in the spring of 2017 that I thought that he would flop for us and that he was no Iniesta replacement as most of the forum were convinced of) that he has dropped this much in level compared to what he showed last season with the same coach, same players (more or less) and same "system".

Playing him continuously on the "left wing" whenever he plays is not really doing him any favors. He would be much better as the offensive midfielder in a 4-3-3. Playing just behind Messi. In that position his lack of pace would not be exposed, he would have more freedom (Messi upfront would take most of the focus of the opposition) and more time on the ball. Valverde is surely to blame for that. He is doing the same thing (while it does not work) thinking that it will eventually work after 20-30 tryouts. That is not rational behavior.

Drogba did not win them anything. While playing great against us in the first semifinal leg and in the final, it was more the luck of Chelsea and Di Matteo that made them win that trophy. Not some exceptional form from Drogba (no single player can win any such trophy) or their offense. It was one of those freak CL wins similar to that Liverpool team of 2005 and RM of 2016 and last season and countless of other such teams that won the CL. Winning despite being far from the best teams in Europe and even in their own domestic leagues.

I have already (time and time again) written that Messi should drop those useless international friendlies in late March that are played on the other side of the earth. It is only making life difficult for himself and he is not a youngster anymore nor has he anything to prove for Argentina in 2 worthless friendlies. Same with Suárez.

Difference is that we are better as a collective this year. Actually our form and results are only going in one direction which is towards an upward trend. Unlike last year where it was painfully clear that our (Valverde's) approach would bit us in the ass. It was not hard to predict. Dembélé is creating danger even when having a bad day. Either by scoring, assisting or creating constant danger. He adds tremendous pace to our team with otherwise lacks it offensively. Suárez' overall play has improved vastly since the Lyon game. Too soon to tell if he will continue in this fashion but I would like to believe that he will. Messi can only get better. Coutinho likewise (even more so). Malcom is an unknown thanks to being frozen out by Valverde in an insane fashion after an arguably MoM performance in his first El Clásico.

Not only that, I believe that the team would want to win another treble and in particular the CL after 3 seasons of not winning it and seeing their main rivals (RM) winning it. The same main rivals that we are dominating constantly in the two domestic tournaments and winning against left and right. The same rivals who we never faced in those 3 CL-winning seasons. Had we done that I suspect that they would only have won 1 CL in 2016-17 but that we will never know.

Valverde has gotten wiser (yes, I know how funny that sounds but I have no doubt about that) and will not commit some of the shocking tactical decisions as in the Roma away game. We are clear favorites to win our 8th league title in 11 years. We are in our sixth (!) CdR final in a row. We should be able to eliminate Lyon as well and advance to the quarter-finals. I prefer to be optimistic this time around as I consider the additions of Lenglet, Vidal, Arthur (in particular) and Dembélé (in particular - he is like a new signing this season basically due to him missing most of last season) and dare I say Malcom who I think could become an important substitute or player if given more continuous playing time in this last part of the season.

Basically we are stronger defensively, in the midfield and offensively than last season so obviously we should aim higher than a CL quarter-final. Even more so when the usual suspects in the CL in RM are pathetically bad this season, Bayern likewise and one of either Juve or Atlético (most likely Juve) will go out within the next 2 weeks.

Sure, Man City and PSG are dangerous opponents. Possible our most dangerous opponents on paper. However I can't see why we could not advance over 2 games. It's not like they are some amazing teams or even remotely at the same level that our best teams were or even RM in recent years. Or Bayern of years gone by. Or Atlético at their best. We will have ample opportunities against both of those sides.

Our pathetic CL form of recent years has to end at some point. A form that I have always believed is mainly (obviously not only) down to the mental part as it is hard to explain rationally otherwise. This season could be a good start. In fact we could have started that by winning 1-3 or 1-4 against Lyon which we should have done based on our opportunities. 20-25 shots on goal yet zero goals. All due to Dembélé, Messi and Suárez ALL having an off-day in front of goal. That won't happen many times.

Of course I could easily list all of our weaknesses as well (which could be done about any team in the world) and use the pessimistic approach but that would be boring. Not a pessimist by nature either so I try to be as positive as possible and frankly speaking we are in a very good position in all 3 tournaments. 99,9% of all other fans of other teams would be envious of us.

 

[serghei]

Everybody's right in this anyway. Even those who give Ernie a lot of leeway and cut him a lot of slack are right from their perspective. It's all about how one evaluates the importance of the manager right now. I am very demanding from a Barca manager, which is why I'm very critic on Valverde most of the times. I believe the manager holds a key role, more important than that of any player.

You saw under Lucho how an attack consisting of Messi, Neymar and Suarez, can score 0 goals and receive 7 in two away games in CL if tactics are all over the place. That was clearly the best trio in the world and it became basically useless, when there is no direction in the team.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Everybody's right in this anyway. Even those who give Ernie a lot of leeway and cut him a lot of slack are right from their perspective. It's all about how one evaluates the importance of the manager right now. I am very demanding from a Barca manager, which is why I'm very critic on Valverde most of the times. I believe the manager holds a key role, more important than that of any player.

You saw under Lucho how an attack consisting of Messi, Neymar and Suarez, can score 0 goals and receive 7 in two away games in CL if tactics are all over the place. That was clearly the best trio in the world and it became basically useless, when there is no direction in the team.

I agree. Similar to my criticism of Valverde despite us winning the double and statistically doing really well. If not for that horrendous Roma game we would have reached the CL-semifinals and who knows have won another treble?

Valverde can be blamed for a lot of things (I would have to write a long list to mention it all) but at the same time I am not in favor of blaming everything on the manager while looking past our players, in particular key senior players not performing as they should in the CL knockout stage. It has been happening with more than 1 manager in the past years. It could likely happen with another this time around as well had Valverde been replaced this summer.

Some of our struggles in the CL in recent years are the result of numerous things. A bad board (although they are improving, even one of the their biggest if not their biggest critic like me have to admit to this), lack of a sports project in place (for instance our transfer policy some of our transfer flops where they the transfers of the board or those of the managers and did both the board and manager agree on them?) as for instance in a genuine Cruyff model (like we had under Laporta with Rijkaard and Pep) the manager is the one selecting his transfers and the board is helping to facilitate them and if all the priorities cannot be achieved, they are proposing other but similar options. Not sure if that was the case during Luchos tenure all the time (as it should have been) or even under Valverde. Tactical mistakes by above average or good managers like Lucho and Valverde (not great and not managers with experience in the CL for instance), our seniors (core of the team) not performing as well consistently as once and the mental element that I have talked about a few times in recent months/weeks that is often overlooked. Especially if the same blackouts/thrashings occur over several seasons as in the past 2 seasons (QSG, Juve, Roma). With different managers. That and obviously the nature of the CL (knockout competition) where luck, having refereeing decisions in your favor, having more good than bad days, topping form wise at the right time and moment of the season (usually favors teams, unlike ours, that are not fighting on all 3 fronts as we are doing every single season, hence RM's recent success and Bayern doing better than us, outside of our 2014-15 win, due to them having amble of time and energy to focus on the CL as they are winning the Bundesliga left and right and frankly by default without kicking a ball). Now with Dortmund having woken up a bit (although they are back to their usual selves this year so far) they have some competition. Otherwise zero.

 

[serghei]

Anyway, I expect us to rest quite a few players and put them in to catch some 30 mins or so vs Rayo. Rest everyone who is showing signs of tiredness or any sort of discomfort.

Vs Lyon, the plan should be to attack from the start. This is how a much superior team should play at home. All we need to do is win this game. At home, against 95.000 fans. Start strong, score a couple of goals, and then we can maybe play on the counter.

I absolutely do not want us to pay too much respect to Lyon. Would be a terrible mistake to approach this game in a pragmatic way. There should be a clear difference in how we approach a home game vs Lyon, with a game away to Madrid.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Fair enough.

-I think you are underrating Liverpool trio, although undeniable they have their problems this year.
-For Coutinho, he played more at LW than AM during his career, and he plays with ton of freedom here, he is more of LAM than a true LW when he is on the left. EV is putting ton of trust and trying to make it work for him. But this level of decline has never happened without something not related to tactical/coaching reasons.
-Again, are we capable of beating any team? yes. But :

In reality it is a knockout competition like any other. It only takes 1 bad performance (even against an inferior team on paper and in practice) to go out.

As you said, it is a cup tournament. Odds are always against you.

When our team is just too good it gives us leeway when things aren't going into our ways. Like when we played without Alves against PSG in 2015. We had Montoya asked to just do the simple things and the rest of the team took care of them.
This year we don't have the squad for such leeway. Alba is as important as our 2015 Alves, can we afford to have him injured? the list goes on and on.
During our last 4 CL titles, we had way better squad and were in much better form than any team. By March we were everyone clear favorites for CL title. we were that good and that deep.
With current squad I don't see it, I don't see Messi & Suarez showing up having to play all those games in April after coming back from NT duty. Could it happen? Yeah but I think odds of it happening during 4 games in CL QF & SF are slim.
And tbh, I feel that Messi has reached the point of being satisfied. He is just sure of his legacy, no more playing to prove a point which helped him for a good portion of his career. He still has competitiveness that all elite athletes have, but not the extra motivation he once had.

 

[Zidane82]

Where them haters at?

I still want him gone ... can’t count a couple of hollow victories against a very poor Real Madrid .,

Anybody who persists in picking and playing Rakitic, Roberto at RB and a faded Suarez can do one to my mind .,

 

[Leo_Messi]

-I think you are underrating Liverpool trio, although undeniable they have their problems this year.
-For Coutinho, he played more at LW than AM during his career, and he plays with ton of freedom here, he is more of LAM than a true LW when he is on the left. EV is putting ton of trust and trying to make it work for him. But this level of decline has never happened without something not related to tactical/coaching reasons.
-Again, are we capable of beating any team? yes. But :



As you said, it is a cup tournament. Odds are always against you.

When our team is just too good it gives us leeway when things aren't going into our ways. Like when we played without Alves against PSG in 2015. We had Montoya asked to just do the simple things and the rest of the team took care of them.
This year we don't have the squad for such leeway. Alba is as important as our 2015 Alves, can we afford to have him injured? the list goes on and on.
During our last 4 CL titles, we had way better squad and were in much better form than any team. By March we were everyone clear favorites for CL title. we were that good and that deep.
With current squad I don't see it, I don't see Messi & Suarez showing up having to play all those games in April after coming back from NT duty. Could it happen? Yeah but I think odds of it happening during 4 games in CL QF & SF are slim.
And tbh, I feel that Messi has reached the point of being satisfied. He is just sure of his legacy, no more playing to prove a point which helped him for a good portion of his career. He still has competitiveness that all elite athletes have, but not the extra motivation he once had.

With all due respect. Nothing points to that Liverpool trio being better. Neither individually nor collectively. Whether it comes to statistics (actual goals scored and assists made) or team success (trophies). They are better when it comes to counterattacking due to being younger on average (although Dembélé has nothing to envy Mané nor Saleh in this department) and playing for Kloppo's system that is suited for such kind of play. That is about it. In fact I think that an average Bayern team coached by an average Kovac will kick them out of the CL at the Allianz Arena.

Yes, I know that Coutinho is better as a LAM or as an offensive midfielder (hence Tite's use of him in the World Cup where he looked really good) but he should be used in Iniesta's position which he has barely been. Is is 3 games in 1+ year? Way too few. Can't do any worse than on the left wing in a 4-3-3 where he clearly is a bad fit.

Disagree. According to the bookies only Man City are bigger favorites to win it than us. Marginally that is as well. Also our team in 2006 was not better (on paper that is) than the current one. Comparing with the 2009 and 2011 teams is a bid unfair. The 2015 as well. Some of the very best teams in football history. With legends in their prime. Hard to compete with.

In any case 99% of all CL teams that have won the title in the past 20 years where worse than those 2009, 2011 and 2015 teams so much less than that is obviously sufficient to win provided that we improve on the fronts that I mentioned. Which is obviously easier said than done unless proven right or wrong.

I thought the same post 2014 and he won a treble and his fifth Ballon d'Or the season after. Would not be surprised by him doing something similar this season after a disappointing World Cup. Him likely participating in the Copa América should give him added motivation. Going into the Copa América as a treble winner for the 3 time in 10 years (!) would be the best preparation possible. So far (in the CL) I have seen a very different Messi compared to past (last 3 CL campaigns). A much more hungry one. I don't recall the stats on top of my head but I think that he has run far more in all CL games this season than in the previous seasons on average. Publicly talking about the CL being the priority (for the first time in years from what I recall) etc. I think that he understands that he has not been as good in the CL in recent years and that C. Ronaldo has overshadowed him, hence the Ballon d'Or wins and him tying with him. Sure Messi apparently does not care about individual trophies but obviously a competitor this big and this good will look at such things and try to improve. He has a good opportunity this season as our team is better than last season. I don't think that you can argue against that although I remember you saying the opposite not long ago which I always found strange.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

I disagree about Valverde being a clear possession style manager, like a Van Gaal. To me, Valverde is clearly more on the pragmatic side. To be a premier possession manager you have to cope with risks and play on the front foot. We rarely play on the front foot in big games. He usually turns pragmatic against teams which can hurt us. When the going gets tough or he has something to lose, he'd constantly feel the need to drop back. That to me is telling. Even his use of possession is cautious as hell. When you manage Barcelona you clearly will have the ball most games, that doesn't mean you are a clear possession based manager. This is more a trait of the team. If you put Mourinho at Barcelona and he's not going to basically kick every ball out so we don't have possession vs Leganes and Levante. If we put Mourinho in charge, I am sure we'll still dominate possession 95% of the games we play, strictly because having possession is a given at Barcelona, at least against medium to smaller teams.

Valverde is a pragmatic manager without a fixed style imo. He'll go flippy-flappy with tactics if he feels that is more likely to make him win, problem is his judgment is off at key moments. He more or less believes in a pretty rigid way of playing, that is clear for me, because players do not move fluidly under him. Arthur came from a more fluid team possibly at Gremio, but you can see that his movements are not consistent with those of the players around him. He is more tiring himself out by being so active off the ball moving up, down, left right, to create space, because those brilliant things he does are not tracked by other players joining in to advance the play in other ways than just simply pass the ball wide, as we do 99% of the time under Valverde. Lol, he even draws criticism from that from some clueless pundits who don't see what we need is in fact more movement, not less of that. Arthur even looks funny moving constantly from place to place while most others are rigidly waiting to get the ball in their very predictable positions.

This obviously leads in possession to a pretty stale game with low creation of chances when individual performances aren't high. It's the same at Juventus, or Atletico when you watch them play a game against a very inferior team. When they have the ball more against lesser sides, they don't actually create chances very easy. You see the same patterns of play as with us, except they use crosses more often, while we pass the ball to Messi instead. Their crossing is what giving the ball to Messi is to us. Easy way to create a chance without working too much. Again, a common sign of pragmatism. They don't have a structured possession play and neither do we. We just pass the ball until someone somewhere in a bit of space makes a difference, either with a dribble, or a good cross, or some great shot. We only score more because we have gifted attackers who constantly turn normal attacking situations into chances to score, most notable Messi, Dembele and Suarez.

This style imo can work, and has been proven to be at the core of big European wins for various teams. But you need to have 2 things in order to do great in Europe with it. You need professional players who are physically tough, have great work rate, and don't make errors except very rarely. In the pragmatic game you need to make almost zero concessions. It's a game in which the opponent has to work hard to score you goals, which means no bad turnovers, no players who slack off and sleep instead of closing gaps, basically nothing that is a gift for the opponent. All of those great pragmatic managers created teams who just didn't gift you anything. Hard working teams, disciplined, with players that don't have very up and down form. Not brilliant players, but consistent, strong physically, very professional, disciplined and very good at following tactical plans to the letter. Many of the best players under Allegri, Mourinho, Simeone are like that. You don't see 4-5 top 10 Balloon d'Or nominees in their team.

The 2nd thing is that all pragmatic managers, in order to make the most out of not very resourceful teams in an attacking sense, need to have very very high leadership skills. All of them do not accept players going outside their tactics, or poor discipline, because they know that the whole foundation of their teams is based exactly on that. Atletico without discipline and will, huge atmosphere from their fans at home, and tenacity are nothing in Europe. Because of this, they like older players, not naive young players who are too childish to see football as more rigor than playfulness. Young players do not apply very well to a rather militaristic style of coaching, that very pragmatic managers are known to often impose on their teams.

So, my issue with Valverde is that he doesn't really have any of the big weapons a great pragmatic manager usually has in his bag of tricks. He's not a leader, he's not a very strong voice that everybody is respecting in the team. He defers and panders to his main star players, giving them way too much power in the team, doesn't impose a meritocracy policy in which those who slack off are punished. He minimizes worrying signs, instead of letting his players know that the game is not working and they need to improve pronto. His way of being as a person first and foremost is more likely to cause complacency, than to keep an environment of hard work and discipline all the way through the hardest months in march, april and may. Those things make him unlikely to apply a pragmatic style and win big with it, because he is always likely to crack under pressure. Lacks the charisma and leader-like personality to make players follow him and work very hard. Lacks the courage to make hard decisions that help the team, even if those might upset some star players. Is an overall soft presence in the team and on the sidelines. Looks clueless once a game is likely to fall off track and he shows a kind of helplessness that is really bad. All those things go against the image of a successful pragmatic manager.

For me, he's just decent at most things, without having any area that he really shines in. Not particularly pleasant style, doesn't trust or develop young players well, doesn't show courage or any kind of boldness, has a very short term vision which isn't likely to lead to a new team in the truest sense of the word being created in his term etc.

Good post. There isn't much I really disagree with here. Only thing I'll say is that Van Gaal's United were not nearly as adventurous as he was with us or even Bayern. A lot of the static positional play that you correctly described in Valverde, I saw in Van Gaal's United. Again, I said he is a poor-mans version, not nearly as inventive or strong-willed as him.

I don't expect "our" football back (Cryuff/Pep style) until Xavi is ready, so until then, if and only if, Valverde can produce a CL this season, will I tolerate this. I really am not a fan of this either, to be clear. Your observation of how stale we are in possession is probably my biggest problem with him tactically speaking. I don't like that he is kind of a pussy too and its frustrating because you emphasis on Arthur in particular demonstrates how much better we could be if we had a coach more in line with our style and with enough balls to actually hold players accountable and take some risks.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

He has brought Dembele and Semedo back from the dead, Jordi Alba, Messi, Lenglet, Arturo, Arthur, Pique, STEGEN, etc etc all playing world class football. He deserves some credit but I'll sing his praises big time if he can bring us a treble and bring Coutinho back from the dead.

 

[Barcaman]

Good results but our best players in Clasicos were Ter Stegen and Pique. I wouldn't mind if we were called Atletico or Juve but even if we lower ourselves to that standard this kind of style can't work for Barca and it's a matter of time before we collapse.