Ernesto Valverde - V1

[Messigician]

Furious at Neymar and Pep leaving. Imagine in 2016 we bought Pogba as intended and Pep and Neymar never left. Current team.

Neymar Suarez Messi
Arthur Busquets De Jong
Alba Umtiti Pique Roberto
Ter Stegen

 

[George_Costanza]

Furious at Neymar and Pep leaving. Imagine in 2016 we bought Pogba as intended and Pep and Neymar never left. Current team.

Neymar Suarez Messi
Arthur Busquets De Jong
Alba Umtiti Pique Roberto
Ter Stegen

Acting like you are a Barca fan for more than a year or two. Anyone appreciate Pep's football philosophy will never like the way we play under Valverde and you are EV's die hard fanboy. It doesn't make any sense!

 

[messi2140]

Furious at Neymar and Pep leaving. Imagine in 2016 we bought Pogba as intended and Pep and Neymar never left. Current team.

Neymar Suarez Messi
Arthur Busquets De Jong
Alba Umtiti Pique Roberto
Ter Stegen

Im not sure if it was deliberate since you tend to have these brainfarts alot , but good one.

 

[Cule4life]

Furious at Neymar and Pep leaving. Imagine in 2016 we bought Pogba as intended and Pep and Neymar never left. Current team.

Neymar Suarez Messi
Arthur Busquets De Jong
Alba Umtiti Pique Roberto
Ter Stegen

Tired from too much fighting with Leonidas?

 

[Mido]

As long as Coutinho doesnt step up massively or a Messi on fire carries the team through the rest of the season, I cant allow myself to expect ultra-dynamic attractive offensive football consistently , especially in big games.

Suarez , Dembélé are obivously not playmakers and cannot be given the responsibility to do some "playmaking" if you allow me the expression.

Arthur seems to be on the right path, but it's something to emulate Xavi and Iniesta against Leganes, and Something else to do it against Atletico, Real or in a CL game.

Rakitic seemed very solid to me recently, especially with his choices of passes, his movement, but he is not a playmaker at Barca.


Yes I might be a little bit harsh but the responsibility in midfield is huge. Giving a central role to Arthur in an offensive, dynamic possession-oriented 4-3-3, is not a solution on the long term right now. And I might be proven wrong in the future.

I think Arthur would have learnt a lot with an Iniesta or Xavi in his team.


For 2019/2020 onwards, I see at the current moment two likely choices ; bring elite level midfielders/playmakers that could need some time to adapt or make some tactical shifts.


If playing with the current 4-4-2 is the price to pay to save the season or even maintain strong hopes for a treble, I would have no problem with it.


My personal opinion is that the closest we can get to an electric Barca is setting a system or a gala 11 where both Dembélé and Coutinho are starters

 

[BBZ8800]

Well, that's thing we're trying to correct, isn't it? It is the manager's job to make sure the best team in Spain show it in Europe. Manager and players need to get their shit together and put in performances like those vs Atletico and Madrid in Europe as well.

Doesn't make sense to attribute our lack of success in Europe with 'the attack is not good enough'. We have more than enough evidence to suggest we are more of a case of a great team playing underwhelming in Europe.

Reasons could be diverse. Combination of:

- average manager without experience in CL
- lack of proper rotations or proper use of the whole squad during tough months
- lack of motivation from players having won too much
- arrogance and undervaluing opponents who clearly can hurt you if showing up poorly
- lack of intensity at times

Some valid points, but some key points are missing, which are unrelated to Lucho and Valverde.
Fine:
1. average manager, ok
2. lack of rotations, fine
3. lack of motivation, true
4. arrogance, agreed
5. lack of intensity, ok

But, let's go back to our last few CL exits:
1. Atletico 2014
2. Atletico 2016
3. Psg, Juve 2017
4. Roma 2018

I would add these points:
1. Barca and our players play in La Liga.
La liga is a technical league. And majority of players and teams here are technically oriented on passing, technique, possession, latin-type of football (Brasil/Spain).
So, our team and our players are used to these kinds of opponents and are built that way (to play good against physically average but technical teams).
In La Liga, except Atletico, there aren't teams who are as physical (and also technical) like Juventus, Liverpool, Bayern, Roma, right?
So, when Messi and our guys are playing and walking against Levante, Leganes, Girona, Betis and other teams, we are often shocked when we meet way physically stronger, faster, taller, with more stamina teams, who are ALSO extremely technical and with a combative spirit.

So, my point no1: for 12 Months Barca is playing with physically average teams and ONLY in CL knockout rounds we are facing extremely well prepared and strong physical teams.

2. a point no2 related to a point no1: against La Liga teams, it is usually enough to just pass to Messi, and we will score.
These teams don't have THAT good defenses.
Those teams are not that PHYSICAL in defense and midfield.
And Arthur, Alena, Busquets and others usually don't suffer that much against La Liga teams in terms of physique.
When we meet Liverpool, Roma, Juve, Atletico and others, we are shocked and we have no idea what is happening, because these teams are running like crazy and are way stronger than 90% of the opponents whom we are playing against in La Liga.

So, a point no2: La liga teams are usually lighter both in midfield and defense, so Barca can score goals easily in La liga against shorter and physically weaker/slower defenders compared to a CL.

3. let's move forward: La Liga teams, since they are technical and play Latin type of technical football, they are usually playing similar to Barca in attack: aka possession, technique, dribbles, 1-2s.
Not too many La Liga teams rely on 190cm tall CFs and on crosses and headers.
That means that Alba, Roberto and our fullbacks are usually good enough in La liga when teams are playing mostly on the ground.
But when we come to a CL, Atletico is banging goals with feet and with HEADERS after crosses.
Juve is banging goals in BOTH ways.
Real was banging goals in BOTH ways with CR7 and Benzema.
Roma is playing crosses for Dzeko all the time.

So, our team is shocked:
1. both in midfield (CL teams are quite physically strong)
2. in attack: La liga teams have way lighter defenses than European teams
3. in defense: La Liga teams aren't crossing and heading that much

Now, let's go back to Roma:Barca match.
Ok, fine, we had a poor manager, a lack of rotations, unmotivated players, we didn't have fighters in a team.
But let's look what else happened:
People often say: if we had Arthur, we would have won in Rome, lol.

Let's see:
1. we couldn't take the ball into an opponent's half
= true, Arthur would have helped in this area
2. what then?
We would get the ball around the box, and what would Arthur do then? Nothing.
Since we would pass every ball to Messi.
Roma would have man marked Messi with 2-3 guys and that's it. We are dead. This is not La liga.
Also, as mentioned above, we have only one way to score goals: through the ground after magic solo action or after awesome team action.
Again, those "awesome" actions through the ground resulted in these results in the last few years on away CL Knockout rounds matches:
Atletico 0:2
Psg 0:4
Juve 0:3
Roma 0:3
So, yeah, maybe we DO have some problems in attack and the things which we do in La Liga is NOT GOOD ENOUGH against strong European teams.

So, Arthur would offer more possession, but we probably wouldn't have scored with our predictable one-dimensional type of attacks ONLY through the ground.

3. let's move to defending: we would have Arthur in the middle.
Would he be able to outrun and outmuscle Roma's warriors?
I doubt it.

4. let's move even more into our half: Roma plays a wings-type of attacks with crosses for Dzeko.
Would Arthur (Or Dembele) help in that part? No.
We would still get murdered in defense after crosses because our team is built for La liga type of football where all teams play a sort of a possession-technical type of football.
How many teams in La liga have 2-3 forwards with 190cm in a team?
Roma had 7-8 players with height around 190cm.
We absolutely NEVER face those type of teams in La Liga, so we were shocked and didn't know how to defend after long balls and crosses.

5. let's move to defensive corners.
Again, in La Liga: majority of teams have shorter (170-180cm tall) Spanish, Portuguese and Brasilian players.
In Europe, Juve, Roma, English teams, Bayern, ALL have way taller players.
In the last few CL exits:
Griezmann iirc scored a header against us in Madrid.
Juve scored after a corner (Chiellini or Bonucci iirc) in Torino.
Roma scored for 3:0 AGAIN after a corner.
When was the last time when Barca scored a goal in a CL KO matches after a corner with a header?
Yet, we are conceding on average 1 goal per tie after a corner against taller European teams.

My point is: what works in La Liga, isn't a winning formula in a CL.
On our last 3 big CL away matches, we conceded 10 goals under Lucho and EV (Psg 0:4, Juve 0:3, Roma 0:3).
And we scored 0 goals.

I am not saying that things would have ended the same with Dembele and Arthur in a team.
But still, again, I think that it is way too simplified to say: we would have won with Arthur or with a different manager.
Serghei, you mentioned at least 5 Barca's problems. I have added at least 5 more problems.

Now, after all these points from above, let's sit down and check Roma:Barca highlights again:
1st half:
1:0 a long ball (our short players again), Dzeko scores
Plus, Roma had 4 chances AFTER crosses, ALL with headers, where their players were way taller than our guys, and we had no idea how to defend, since all teams in La Liga are usually quite short and don't play this type of football.
2nd half:
2:0 penalty, a long ball for Dzeko again.
3 more chances after crosses with headers.
3:0 a header after a penalty.

So, basically, Roma had 8 headers after crosses and 2 long balls for Dzeko, where we couldn't stop him since he is usually taller than our defenders.
I am not saying that a height alone wins matches.
But, in La Liga, height is a not a problem. All you need is technique, possession and some magic.
In a CL: physical and tall teams are causing us problems all the time, regardless of Lucho or EV.
Btw, even Pep couldn't beat Chelsea in 2009' without referees.
And in 2011, again, even Pep couldn't beat a physical team Inter with our type of passing-through-the-ground football which works in La Liga.
So, this problem is not from 2017/18. Barca always had problems in attack against stronger physical teams.
Plus, we always had problems after crosses and corners in Europe due to a Spanish/Latin players being shorter on average than people from Northern Europe.
We did win some CLs though. But only with prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves. And EVEN THEN, we didn't have an answer for physical teams and we needed some luck or referee's help.

Now, let's go back to Roma:Barca and look how Roma created 8 header chances (+2 long balls) against us in Rome.
How will you prevent those (with Arthur, Malcom and Dembele)?:

 

[clemente]

Some valid points, but some key points are missing, which are unrelated to Lucho and Valverde.
Fine:
1. average manager, ok
2. lack of rotations, fine
3. lack of motivation, true
4. arrogance, agreed
5. lack of intensity, ok

But, let's go back to our last few CL exits:
1. Atletico 2014
2. Atletico 2016
3. Psg, Juve 2017
4. Roma 2018

I would add these points:
1. Barca and our players play in La Liga.
La liga is a technical league. And majority of players and teams here are technically oriented on passing, technique, possession, latin-type of football (Brasil/Spain).
So, our team and our players are used to these kinds of opponents and are built that way (to play good against physically average but technical teams).
In La Liga, except Atletico, there aren't teams who are as physical (and also technical) like Juventus, Liverpool, Bayern, Roma, right?
So, when Messi and our guys are playing and walking against Levante, Leganes, Girona, Betis and other teams, we are often shocked when we meet way physically stronger, faster, taller, with more stamina teams, who are ALSO extremely technical and with a combative spirit.

So, my point no1: for 12 Months Barca is playing with physically average teams and ONLY in CL knockout rounds we are facing extremely well prepared and strong physical teams.

2. a point no2 related to a point no1: against La Liga teams, it is usually enough to just pass to Messi, and we will score.
These teams don't have THAT good defenses.
Those teams are not that PHYSICAL in defense and midfield.
And Arthur, Alena, Busquets and others usually don't suffer that much against La Liga teams in terms of physique.
When we meet Liverpool, Roma, Juve, Atletico and others, we are shocked and we have no idea what is happening, because these teams are running like crazy and are way stronger than 90% of the opponents whom we are playing against in La Liga.

So, a point no2: La liga teams are usually lighter both in midfield and defense, so Barca can score goals easily in La liga against shorter and physically weaker/slower defenders compared to a CL.

3. let's move forward: La Liga teams, since they are technical and play Latin type of technical football, they are usually playing similar to Barca in attack: aka possession, technique, dribbles, 1-2s.
Not too many La Liga teams rely on 190cm tall CFs and on crosses and headers.
That means that Alba, Roberto and our fullbacks are usually good enough in La liga when teams are playing mostly on the ground.
But when we come to a CL, Atletico is banging goals with feet and with HEADERS after crosses.
Juve is banging goals in BOTH ways.
Real was banging goals in BOTH ways with CR7 and Benzema.
Roma is playing crosses for Dzeko all the time.

So, our team is shocked:
1. both in midfield (CL teams are quite physically strong)
2. in attack: La liga teams have way lighter defenses than European teams
3. in defense: La Liga teams aren't crossing and heading that much

Now, let's go back to Roma:Barca match.
Ok, fine, we had a poor manager, a lack of rotations, unmotivated players, we didn't have fighters in a team.
But let's look what else happened:
People often say: if we had Arthur, we would have won in Rome, lol.

Let's see:
1. we couldn't take the ball into an opponent's half
= true, Arthur would have helped in this area
2. what then?
We would get the ball around the box, and what would Arthur do then? Nothing.
Since we would pass every ball to Messi.
Roma would have man marked Messi with 2-3 guys and that's it. We are dead. This is not La liga.
Also, as mentioned above, we have only one way to score goals: through the ground after magic solo action or after awesome team action.
Again, those "awesome" actions through the ground resulted in these results in the last few years on away CL Knockout rounds matches:
Atletico 0:2
Psg 0:4
Juve 0:3
Roma 0:3
So, yeah, maybe we DO have some problems in attack and the things which we do in La Liga is NOT GOOD ENOUGH against strong European teams.

So, Arthur would offer more possession, but we probably wouldn't have scored with our predictable one-dimensional type of attacks ONLY through the ground.

3. let's move to defending: we would have Arthur in the middle.
Would he be able to outrun and outmuscle Roma's warriors?
I doubt it.

4. let's move even more into our half: Roma plays a wings-type of attacks with crosses for Dzeko.
Would Arthur (Or Dembele) help in that part? No.
We would still get murdered in defense after crosses because our team is built for La liga type of football where all teams play a sort of a possession-technical type of football.
How many teams in La liga have 2-3 forwards with 190cm in a team?
Roma had 7-8 players with height around 190cm.
We absolutely NEVER face those type of teams in La Liga, so we were shocked and didn't know how to defend after long balls and crosses.

5. let's move to defensive corners.
Again, in La Liga: majority of teams have shorter (170-180cm tall) Spanish, Portuguese and Brasilian players.
In Europe, Juve, Roma, English teams, Bayern, ALL have way taller players.
In the last few CL exits:
Griezmann iirc scored a header against us in Madrid.
Juve scored after a corner (Chiellini or Bonucci iirc) in Torino.
Roma scored for 3:0 AGAIN after a corner.
When was the last time when Barca scored a goal in a CL KO matches after a corner with a header?
Yet, we are conceding on average 1 goal per tie after a corner against taller European teams.

My point is: what works in La Liga, isn't a winning formula in a CL.
On our last 3 big CL away matches, we conceded 10 goals under Lucho and EV (Psg 0:4, Juve 0:3, Roma 0:3).
And we scored 0 goals.

I am not saying that things would have ended the same with Dembele and Arthur in a team.
But still, again, I think that it is way too simplified to say: we would have won with Arthur or with a different manager.
Serghei, you mentioned at least 5 Barca's problems. I have added at least 5 more problems.

Now, after all these points from above, let's sit down and check Roma:Barca highlights again:
1st half:
1:0 a long ball (our short players again), Dzeko scores
Plus, Roma had 4 chances AFTER crosses, ALL with headers, where their players were way taller than our guys, and we had no idea how to defend, since all teams in La Liga are usually quite short and don't play this type of football.
2nd half:
2:0 penalty, a long ball for Dzeko again.
3 more chances after crosses with headers.
3:0 a header after a penalty.

So, basically, Roma had 8 headers after crosses and 2 long balls for Dzeko, where we couldn't stop him since he is usually taller than our defenders.
I am not saying that a height alone wins matches.
But, in La Liga, height is a not a problem. All you need is technique, possession and some magic.
In a CL: physical and tall teams are causing us problems all the time, regardless of Lucho or EV.
Btw, even Pep couldn't beat Chelsea in 2009' without referees.
And in 2011, again, even Pep couldn't beat a physical team Inter with our type of passing-through-the-ground football which works in La Liga.
So, this problem is not from 2017/18. Barca always had problems in attack against stronger physical teams.
Plus, we always had problems after crosses and corners in Europe due to a Spanish/Latin players being shorter on average than people from Northern Europe.
We did win some CLs though. But only with prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves. And EVEN THEN, we didn't have an answer for physical teams and we needed some luck or referee's help.

Now, let's go back to Roma:Barca and look how Roma created 8 header chances (+2 long balls) against us in Rome.
How will you prevent those (with Arthur, Malcom and Dembele)?:

Crosses should be defended way before they are even crossed, not with skyscrapers in the box.

 

[Raketa10]

I really enjoyed watching Ajax tonight. The amount of running, pressing...WOW! On the other side anyone who watched Ajax saw that Barca can't play like that anymore. To be able to press like that you need to do it with all players while Suarez and Messi can't even press Malaga anymore. I am not defending Valverde but we should really ask ourselves if our old and slow team is capable of playing like we all want Barca to play. If we want to play possessional football we need to press high but are we capable of doing that? I don't think so. Maybe the way we play right now is the only possible way since half of our team is either slow or incapable of pressing and running for 90 min.

To be clear I don't expect from Messi to press for 90 min, I am just saying that in modern football only ONE player can walk while we are defending and 90% of time we have two of them.

 

[DonAK]

I really enjoyed watching Ajax tonight. The amount of running, pressing...WOW! On the other side anyone who watched Ajax saw that Barca can't play like that anymore. To be able to press like that you need to do it with all players while Suarez and Messi can't even press Malaga anymore. I am not defending Valverde but we should really ask ourselves if our old and slow team is capable of playing like we all want Barca to play. If we want to play possessional football we need to pres high but are we capable of doing that? I don't think so. Maybe the way we play right now is the only possible way since half of our team is either slow or incapable of pressing and running for 90 min.

Problem isn't just Messi or Suarez. Dembele, our midfielders except Arthur all just stand there. No movement off the ball or any pressing worth its salt.

They all need a slap on their heads.

 

[Aryagorn]

The world has just witnessed Cruyff's old cash-strapped school destroy Real, a 3-time CL champion and we have this guy at the helm!

 

[Messigician]

Let's get the Ajax coach when EV walks after the treble

 

[clemente]

We are laughing at Real but Ajax is playing 3x more beautiful and better football than us, can see us getting KO'd by them.

 

[BarçaBarça]

We are laughing at Real but Ajax is playing 3x more beautiful and better football than us, can see us getting KO'd by them.

You're right, no one will deny they are playing more excitingly. Still we have got Messi and Dembele and a better defence than them, so even if they play more beautiful, we would still be favourites to go through, imo. And it's still early, they could run into Atletico in next round, who they can't get through as I see it.

Imagine us against them in the final - that would be some game!

 

[YodaMaster]

'Cruff/Pep football doesn't work anymore in 2019'.
Past 3 years, RM played the likes of Juventus, Bayern, PSG, Atletico, Liverpool, City,etc. None of these teams were able to beat once RM in CL finals.
First team to beat RM in CL since 2015 ? Ajax Amsterdam, playing the most possible Cruyff style football. The nearest thing to Pep's football today.
Fucking Ajax which doesn't have 1/10 Barca's money and attractive power.

Yet Barca should celebrate Valverde's coward football because 'in 2019, beautiful technical football doesn't work'. Or 'total football won't work without Xavi and Iniesta'. I guess Schone and Von De Beek are Xavi and Iniesta ?

I hope Valverde and workhorse fanboys will shut up for a while with their bullshit theories.

Not so long ago, Barca was THE team that played like Ajax yesterday, except Barca was 5 times better in all aspects.
But today we should accept Valverde's football ? GTFO. I prefer to lose playing Cruyff/Pep football rather than win a CL with EV's pitty tactics. That's why I started supporting Barca in the first place: beautiful football. Plus actually EV's shit football couldn't even get in CL semis, losing in QF against Roma lol.

If you're a Barca fan and you respect and love Barca's history, you simply can't tolerate what we're seeing under Ernesto Valverde.

 

[YodaMaster]

Barça isn't about winning trophies in whatever fashion. Barça is about winning trophies in the most classy and dominant fashion.
That's one of the many reasons why Barça is 'Mes que un club'. Used to be should I say.

1992, 2006, 2009, 2011 and 2015 seasons showed that the only way to win a CL for Barça is by playing beautiful and dominant football, being the protagonist. Barca never won a CL playing shit football, remember that. And I'm telling you right now: we won't win CL with EV's shitty defensive tactics. That's just not the way Barça works. That's just not Barça's destiny.