Francesc "Tito" Vilanova

[oz187]

Pep played Iniesta on the wing a lot too to fit in Cesc. That was not a new idea from Tito. If the Don played in the middle more this season then Thiago would have got even less minutes.

I also don't see this Thiago deserved a lot more minutes argument as making much sense. You have Xavi and Iniesta who are two of the greatest players in Barcelona history, you have Cesc who had a dilemma with Arsenal but chose to try to come back and is dedicated to fighting for his place, he was also the best player in the Premier league and has been the second highest goalscorer/assistant these past two seasons. Why exactly does Thiago deserve minutes compared to these guys when he himself seems to be less dedicated? That is in addition to being error prone?

Taking account of around three months of injury as well as no more 3-4-3 I think Thiago has played quite a lot of minutes. He hasn't played in the big games, but do you think Barca could have managed a 4-0 against Milan if Thiago was playing instead of Xavi? Would you want him giving the ball away to Ozil or Cristiano in a Clasico? He is 4th in the pecking order and deservedly so. There was a case for him to play a couple more games, but that is maybe a 10% difference. Hardly something that would make him leave.

 

[JamDav1982]

I lost count of the sitters Madrid missed in the second leg in the super cup. We were simply awful. We did play well in the first leg and get unlucky there though, I'll give you that one.

Madrid almost blew Barca in that game I agree but to be fair the two goals were down to individual errors.

Barca actually dominated the game for 60 mins with ten men after the red though.

 

[DonAndres]

Pep played Iniesta on the wing a lot too to fit in Cesc. That was not a new idea from Tito. If the Don played in the middle more this season then Thiago would have got even less minutes.

I also don't see this Thiago deserved a lot more minutes argument as making much sense. You have Xavi and Iniesta who are two of the greatest players in Barcelona history, you have Cesc who had a dilemma with Arsenal but chose to try to come back and is dedicated to fighting for his place, he was also the best player in the Premier league and has been the second highest goalscorer/assistant these past two seasons. Why exactly does Thiago deserve minutes compared to these guys when he himself seems to be less dedicated? That is in addition to being error prone?

Taking account of around three months of injury as well as no more 3-4-3 I think Thiago has played quite a lot of minutes. He hasn't played in the big games, but do you think Barca could have managed a 4-0 against Milan if Thiago was playing instead of Xavi? Would you want him giving the ball away to Ozil or Cristiano in a Clasico? He is 4th in the pecking order and deservedly so. There was a case for him to play a couple more games, but that is maybe a 10% difference. Hardly something that would make him leave.

A lot of the things you're saying about Thiago are just wrong. "Xavi and Iniesta are two of the greatest in Barca history and Cesc was best in the PL" It's that kind of merit bias that constitutes stubborn management. Many times Thiago has been in better form than Cesc or even Xavi, yet you'd pick a lineup based on how famous or grand of a player they are rather than current performances. Also the whole playing "Thiago against Milan over Xavi" thing works both ways. Thiago was better than Xavi in the few minutes he got vs Bayern. He was actually getting forward, whereas Xavi was complacently passing around the center circle. Same idea as Xavi was lethargic in the first leg vs Milan and vs Madrid in the CDR (he was playing on painkillers!!).

 

[oz187]

A lot of the things you're saying about Thiago are just wrong. "Xavi and Iniesta are two of the greatest in Barca history and Cesc was best in the PL" It's that kind of merit bias that constitutes stubborn management. Many times Thiago has been in better form than Cesc or even Xavi, yet you'd pick a lineup based on how famous or grand of a player they are rather than current performances.

Except that the people that want Thiago to play more are basing their argument on bias(Thiago is the future, Xavi is the past). If you are going to be biased then being biased towards proven players that have given so much to the club makes more sense than being biased to a young precocious player that is trying to make his name.

Thiago also hasn't really been in noticeably better form than Cesc or Xavi. He has however made multiple elementary errors, the kind of errors that would make any manager doubt him for big games. Is it a surprise that Tito went with the proven players? Your Bayern example also doesn't make sense, how exactly did Thiago do great when Barca conceded two goals and scored none while he was playing?

 

[DonAndres]

He has been noticeably better than Cesc during the 2nd half. Xavi hasn't been in form, playing his role correctly but without as much life as before. Thiago had several great games (which somehow get overlooked by many forum members) and his season has been far from dismal. Also he's only made 2-3 major errors this entire season (and he stopped making them after a while) yet people act like he makes goal-conceding errors every other game.

As for big games, it's not THAT surprising to use the mature players for big games but certainly considering how off form Xavi was at times or even injured. And the Bayern example does make sense. Barca scored none, period. Thiago just played with more life and attacking intent than Xavi did while he was on. It disproves your belief that Xavi is the only one out of the two who's amazing in big games and absolutely necessary when in truth he has not been that great in any of them bar one.

 

[oz187]

When did I say Xavi is amazing in every big game he plays? Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to argue a point, fine, but don't be disingenous about it. Xavi like all players has games where he's amazing and games where he's less so. He has however proven many a time he can be amazing, and the return leg against Milan Tito made the right decision in trusting him.

Thiago however, hasn't yet proven he can be amazing to that level. He's awesome, but still learning. He's made a lot of errors, more than 2-3, some of them however haven't been punished. There was one game(can't remember which) where he made a string of errors. You can't compare him to Cesc, Cesc did great the first half and then in the second Cesc also had his minutes reduced as his performance went down.

It's not like Thiago made a few cameos. He played around 2000 minutes which is a lot. That's 2/3rds of what he would play if he was equal to the others. Considering his injuries that's plenty for a 4th choice player. Here's a breakdown to give you guys an even better idea what happened, it makes perfect sense, I'll let you work it out for yourself:

Competition	La Liga		UCL	Copa
Thiago		1474		124	396
Iniesta		2169		846	451
Xavi		2284		992	372
Cesc		2376		551	409

 

[footyfan]

When did I say Xavi is amazing in every big game he plays? Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want to argue a point, fine, but don't be disingenous about it. Xavi like all players has games where he's amazing and games where he's less so. He has however proven many a time he can be amazing, and the return leg against Milan Tito made the right decision in trusting him.

Thiago however, hasn't yet proven he can be amazing to that level. He's awesome, but still learning. He's made a lot of errors, more than 2-3, some of them however haven't been punished. There was one game(can't remember which) where he made a string of errors.

You know, this exact approach is what causes Messi dependencia in the first place. Messi is statistically proven (and of course in the eyes of many) to be the best attacker in Barcelona. At any given point in time during a match, using probability, giving the ball to Messi is the safest option to score. When you recursively let this approach run its course, you see Messi dependencia as it occurs in Barcelona matches in the past 2 seasons. The ball will always be passed to him and the entire attack will always flow through him.

My point being, going on previous merit is not always the best option. 95% of the time, yes it is.

Atleast, in Thiago's case, he had form and fitness over Xavi. In Messi's case, he's always good and thus it makes even more sense to pass the ball to him all the time. But as we can see, it doesn't turn out to be the best option once you've taken it.

 

[Obito Uchiha]

No it's not "we were lucky not to get owned in the Super Cup". We were unlucky that we didn't win, that one goal from an unfortunate error from Valdes cost us the aggregate 5-5 with them winning on away goals.

We were unlucky to concede 1 goal. Madrid were unlucky not to score 5 or more in the second leg. We should have lost that game by at least 4 goals. We were VERY lucky in that game. Almost as lucky as Chelsea were against us. Almost.

 

[Cule4life]

You know, this exact approach is what causes Messi dependencia in the first place. Messi is statistically proven (and of course in the eyes of many) to be the best attacker in Barcelona. At any given point in time during a match, using probability, giving the ball to Messi is the safest option to score. When you recursively let this approach run its course, you see Messi dependencia as it occurs in Barcelona matches in the past 2 seasons. The ball will always be passed to him and the entire attack will always flow through him.

My point being, going on previous merit is not always the best option. 95% of the time, yes it is.

Atleast, in Thiago's case, he had form and fitness over Xavi. In Messi's case, he's always good and thus it makes even more sense to pass the ball to him all the time. But as we can see, it doesn't turn out to be the best option once you've taken it.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

There's just a number of reasons to keep Vilanova around, they can be summed up in two parts i guess..
1) Loyalty. we don't fire a coach after one year ending with a 100-point liga. Granted, he should not and does not get much of the credit for that. But the man has also been an integral part of Pep's success. Has Pedro been sacked after a poor individual, albeit successful collective season ? No because of loyalty AND the fact it would have disrupted the team and club spirit, and it's the same with Vilanova.
2) Lack of a replacement. Seriously , I don't see anyone around having the credentials to reassure everyone. Barca coach is a tough, and particular job. There is zero guarantee anyone save Guardiola himself would do a better job. Vilanova on the other hand is really expected to perform in his 2nd season, or leave at its conclusion.

The Thiago situation is a failure though. If he leaves please get Thiago Silva, only way for me to kind of make up for the nonsense of him leaving, and for 18m.

 

[ryuken]

I wouldnt be surprise if we get a 2nd rate defender in the end

 

[Gilberto]

It would really hurt seeing Thiago become one of the worlds best playmakers at a club like Man Utd. Do the people at Barca realize we have to keep Thiago at all costs?
Give Messi and Xavi more rest, play Cesc and Thiago more often. Problem solved?

 

[Obito Uchiha]

It would really hurt seeing Thiago become one of the worlds best playmakers at a club like Man Utd. Do the people at Barca realize we have to keep Thiago at all costs?
Give Messi and Xavi more rest, play Cesc and Thiago more often. Problem solved?

Rest Iniesta too. Use Thiago as a Xavi backup and Fabregas as an Iniesta backup and ocassionally Messi backup. Problem solved. I don't think there's too big a problem with keeping both Thiago and Cesc.

However, if one has to go, I'd get rid of Cesc. And yeah, they do have to keep Thiago at all costs. Increase his wage, get rid of Cesc AND sack Tito if necessary. I don't think all that is necessary, but if it were, I'd do it.

 

[0n0mat0p0eia]

I cant understand it...the gulf in class between Barca and more than half of the league should mean that the likes of Thiago/Bartra/Montoya/Tello should get far more minutes on the pitch than they do.

What's the point in having a world renowned Cantera and not trying to bring through the players that come from there.

Give them minutes or loan them out, OR get rid of them if they will not be good enough.

 

[ceefoo]

The Thiago saga is Tito's opportunity to regain some favour with the Barca fans. If Tito can secure Thiago's future at Barca, he will go some way to repairing the damage he has caused with his poor handling of this player.

However, going by Tito's blasé comments surrounding Thiago, it disturbs me that he is not that bothered if the player leaves. I have just about ZERO faith in this coaches judgment of young players and should we end up losing Thiago for a pitiful 18m, I would be finished with Tito.