Frenkie de Jong
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MrBombastic
New member
that's a very stupid comparison.
Barcelona had 75% ball possession yesterday.
off course all Barcelona players including de Jong are higher up the pitch on the head map with such possession.
how can they compare a match with Juventus with Osasuna.
It's truly awful what Valverde is doing to him. If this carries on, I can honestly see us loaning him out next summer. Hopefully he's sacked before then.
Messigician
Senior Member
I'm worried about him
Marshall D Teach
Active member
I'm worried about any talent coached by Valverde.
Barcilliant
Senior Member
Any player bar Messi would look shit under Shitverde.
xXKonan
Senior Member
The first three games show just how poorly used he was and the under and overestimation of his skill set and current abilities.
Can he play as an 8 in a 4-3-3? yeah he could but just not in the way what we have seen in the past two games. Playing him so far up the pitch and occupying the same spaces as our wingers and him not getting a lot of touches with the balls is not what FDJ is all about. That seems more of a job suited for someone like Pogba or any other attack-minded CM.
I feel a good example of how FDJ could work as an 8, is what Arthur showed when he came on. Still being able to come down deep to get the ball and create plays from down deep and still be able to advance up the pitch with the ball to be involved in creating opportunities for the Forwards.
You need a balanced approached at it and instead of going to the extreme way of either playing him too far up the pitch nearly as a winger or making him look like just a DM that's playing as an 8 like we have seen last season.
It requires the players to evolve as well which I feel no doubt FDJ could evolve in a role like that. Arthur seems to be evolving by what we have seen yesterday as well.
Can he play as an 8 in a 4-3-3? yeah he could but just not in the way what we have seen in the past two games. Playing him so far up the pitch and occupying the same spaces as our wingers and him not getting a lot of touches with the balls is not what FDJ is all about. That seems more of a job suited for someone like Pogba or any other attack-minded CM.
I feel a good example of how FDJ could work as an 8, is what Arthur showed when he came on. Still being able to come down deep to get the ball and create plays from down deep and still be able to advance up the pitch with the ball to be involved in creating opportunities for the Forwards.
You need a balanced approached at it and instead of going to the extreme way of either playing him too far up the pitch nearly as a winger or making him look like just a DM that's playing as an 8 like we have seen last season.
It requires the players to evolve as well which I feel no doubt FDJ could evolve in a role like that. Arthur seems to be evolving by what we have seen yesterday as well.
MrBombastic
New member
I've watched Frenkie de Jong the last 3 years. He is an overrated player.
His passing skills are poor.
He is comfortable on the ball and can turn away easily. But when it comes to decision making in the field he has poor passing skills.
He always hesitates to pass the ball and doesn't have world class vision.
That's the reason why he dribbles with the ball when he plays as a number 6.
Dribbling with the ball is very ineffective and takes too long for a player on the 6 position.
The less time Frenkie de Jong has the more his poor passing skills are exposed. If he gets pressed he is very poor.
That's the reason why he can't play higher up the pitch when time and space are more limited.
At Ajax it was Schőne who did the passing from 6. up the pitch it was Ziyech who created in narrow spaces with less time.
Frenkie de jong was at his best countering when he has all time and space to dribble.
It's a shame barcelona fell for this hype.
His passing skills are poor.
He is comfortable on the ball and can turn away easily. But when it comes to decision making in the field he has poor passing skills.
He always hesitates to pass the ball and doesn't have world class vision.
That's the reason why he dribbles with the ball when he plays as a number 6.
Dribbling with the ball is very ineffective and takes too long for a player on the 6 position.
The less time Frenkie de Jong has the more his poor passing skills are exposed. If he gets pressed he is very poor.
That's the reason why he can't play higher up the pitch when time and space are more limited.
At Ajax it was Schőne who did the passing from 6. up the pitch it was Ziyech who created in narrow spaces with less time.
Frenkie de jong was at his best countering when he has all time and space to dribble.
It's a shame barcelona fell for this hype.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
We can't change a whole team to accomodate him.
1. Ajax and Netherlands play more direct. We like to play slower and keep possession.
2. He played as a double pivot in 4231 in a team which plays faster and where he is A GUY who gets deep to take the ball
3. Can he play a pivot in 433?
In this moment, he needs to learn and adjust. Also, we have Busi and automatism in our team when he is a pivot.
4. Further, Frenkie ventures too much into an attack in a single pivot in 433, which allows deadly counters.
5. Further, again, he was building attacks for Ajax as a pivot.
Here we have 3 guys who are doing the same: Busi and Arthur.
If Frenkie will build actions, Busi and Arthur will be pushed to CMs.
If Arthur will drop deep, Frenkie has to go more into attacking positions.
If Busi is dropping deep, the same.
And as someone else mentioned, against teams like Betis and Osasuna, you will rarely get a chance to build from deep.
70% of the match, we are in their attacking third, passing around their box.
So, how is his heath map supposed to look like when a heat map of all Barca's players will look like a hybrid of a CM and CAM.
This is not a dig at Frenkie.
It is just wrong to expect that he will play the same as in Ajax:
1. Since he has different teammates with different skills
2. Since we play a different formation
3. Since we have a single pivot and not a double pivot system
4. Since we have two other players who play in similar areas as Frenkie in Busi and Arthur.
5. Since we don't play direct but a slow possession game around their box.
A pivot area can be covered with only 1 guy in 433.
Whomever you put in that area, other two guys will be pushed more into attack, where they play weaker.
So, basically, the question is:
1. Which guy do you want to play as a pivot?
2. And which two guys will play in less comfortable positions?
1. Ajax and Netherlands play more direct. We like to play slower and keep possession.
2. He played as a double pivot in 4231 in a team which plays faster and where he is A GUY who gets deep to take the ball
3. Can he play a pivot in 433?
In this moment, he needs to learn and adjust. Also, we have Busi and automatism in our team when he is a pivot.
4. Further, Frenkie ventures too much into an attack in a single pivot in 433, which allows deadly counters.
5. Further, again, he was building attacks for Ajax as a pivot.
Here we have 3 guys who are doing the same: Busi and Arthur.
If Frenkie will build actions, Busi and Arthur will be pushed to CMs.
If Arthur will drop deep, Frenkie has to go more into attacking positions.
If Busi is dropping deep, the same.
And as someone else mentioned, against teams like Betis and Osasuna, you will rarely get a chance to build from deep.
70% of the match, we are in their attacking third, passing around their box.
So, how is his heath map supposed to look like when a heat map of all Barca's players will look like a hybrid of a CM and CAM.
This is not a dig at Frenkie.
It is just wrong to expect that he will play the same as in Ajax:
1. Since he has different teammates with different skills
2. Since we play a different formation
3. Since we have a single pivot and not a double pivot system
4. Since we have two other players who play in similar areas as Frenkie in Busi and Arthur.
5. Since we don't play direct but a slow possession game around their box.
A pivot area can be covered with only 1 guy in 433.
Whomever you put in that area, other two guys will be pushed more into attack, where they play weaker.
So, basically, the question is:
1. Which guy do you want to play as a pivot?
2. And which two guys will play in less comfortable positions?
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Lapi
Member
BBZ8800
Senior Member
EV, ok, you say that he is wrong.
Lucho=skipped the midfield. Midfield was just babysitting for MSN. And MSN were creators.
Tata=slow possession game with bad results plus Alves making 13 useless crosses per match.
Each coach played differently.
And none system looked like Barca's.
I have doubts whether this team and Messi could play different.
Remember:
Pep bought right players for his system and his ideas.
Klopp the same.
Ten Hag picked right players also.
At Barca:
Messi won't press.
Suarez bad and old, but we are even worse without him.
Semedo, useless in attack.
Roberto, useless as a CM.
Busquets, can't play faster football.
Raki, also.
Dembele, dumbele.
What is left?
Griezmann
Frenkie
And imo, a big question whether Arthur can play a faster football.
Alba
So, you guys want to copy Pep, Klopp, Ajax, yet half of our team is more suitable for slow Italian football from 90s.
Someone will reply: Liverpool has Milner and Henderson.
Well, they can run and release the ball fast to 3 fast attackers.
We don't have any of those.
80% of our team lacks 1 or both of those skills.
With or without EV.
In a DNA of our players is: not to run too much, pass slowly against parked buses.
Play rondos and keep sterile possession.
We will be able to play faster when we will buy 5-10 new players.
But since Barto is saving for Neymar, we will keep these players.
Don, imagine if you were a coach today:
1. Try to make a lineup where we have faster players
2. Where Frenkie is a pivot
3. Where we have a true 9 Suarez
4. Where Messi and Griezz are in a lineup
5. Where we can play a faster football, without wingers since we have none.
The closest to that would be 4231 with Frenkie-Arthur double pivot.
And Suarez, Griezz, Messi, Dembele/Roberto attack.
But then: Busi won't play.
A team will lose automatism.
We will need a lot of time to adjust to 4231.
And it won't work against better teams since Messi and Suarez don't press.
Plus, all players will be forced to pass to Messi in each action. And big teams will neutralize that idea easily.
I can't imagine any 433 with current players where Frenkie will be a pivot and where we will play faster and more direct with fast players.
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