Frenkie de Jong

[jamrock]

BBZ is basically saying he is a steady eddy, nice mentality when you are a med table club, but a horrible one if you want to be among the best.

No disrespect but you sound like the type of guy who if he lucks into a nice low 6 figure salary job, he would be perfectly happy there just existing there, I make 6 figures and i am constantly trying to make more, taking risk, because that's how you achieve success and greatness.

The club cannot fall because we lowered our expectations due to fear, that mentality will never get us anywhere.

Guy comes to BBZ, "i have this idea for inventing a flying machine, i believe it could change the world".

BBZ, "why fly when god gave us feet to walk on and horses to ride, you SIR are taking too much risk, if it doesn't work people will die". Run AWAY

 

[Aryagorn]

You should get a gold medal for not getting a point in posts, mate.

I'll try slowlier:
1. I said that Barca was always an extremely messy and a chaotic club in terms of long term planning, politics, egos, transfers.
2. George mentioned something from the past
3. I asked whether he is a younger fan since majority of older fans surely know and have accepted how chaotic we are
4. George replied that he not a young fan
5. then you came and laugh at me. Lol.
Cool story.
The point of the story is not that I was wrong, but that Barca still is and was extremely chaotic club.

Now, to explain why Barca is chaotic and why we CAN'T have a longterm plan and things about fans are dreaming of.

Let's say that the main factors about which fans are dreaming of are:
1. playing beautiful, Barca's DNA football
2. winning trophies while playing beautiful
3. use La Masia players when playing beautiful and winning
4. have a good board, a coach and sporting directors
5. also, I would dare to say: coach has to play fan's favorites, because fans will whine.
Even if we will be winning and playing beautiful, fans will whine if their new toys are not playing.
Example: imagine if we start to play awesome now, and Frenkie or Arthur are benched. People wouldn't be happy.
A win is not a win, if players "for the future" or "fan's favorites" are not in a team also.

So, let's go point by point:
1. president and a board=we can't get a new board until 2021
So, until then, no progress can be made.
2. then we will need a lucky combo of a new president and a new coach.
Regarding a new coach, since we are Barca, we won't have too much to wait for beautiful play and results.

Now, people need to realize that PEP was the only coach ever in our history with immediate success (and Lucho, to some extent).
People often mention Crujff or Rijkaard.
But a thing is, we were an ultimate shit back then and those coaches had more credit and time to "do their thing".
When Crujff came in a summer of 1989, Barca has won only 1 title in 14 years prior to that.
And Real won 8 titles in those 16 years. Plus, Real has just won 3 La Ligas in a row before Crujff was hired.

So, we were a total shit back then.
We were desperate.
Our results were horrible.
We haven't won any CLs till then and we won 1 La Liga in the last 14 years.
In moments like that, it is somewhat easier to say: fuck it, we don't know what to do now... Let's try someone new with good ideas, give him more time and hope for the best.
This is what happened with Crujff.

And you know what?
When Crujff came:
1. in his first season, Real again won La Liga.
So, Crujff came to Barca, and Real won their 4th La Liga in a row.
But he wasn't fired since: well, we sucked either way.
He was given more time.
We did won Cup winner's cup in his first season.
Back then Uefa had 3 competitions: Champions Cup (later turned into Champions league), Uefa cup (similar to a current competition) and Cup winners cup where winners (or finalists) of domestic Cup competitions played.
2. in his 2nd season here: no improvement in La Liga.
In his first season, we finished 2nd, and in his 2nd season we finished the 3rd behind champions Real Madrid and Valencia.
We won CDR in that season.

So, a lot of guys are talking about Crujff and how we need something similar today.
Yet, today fans want to sack a coach who won 2 La Ligas in 2 years.
And back then, Crujff kept his job for ending the 2nd and the 3rd in La Liga in his first 2 seasons.

Some smartasses will reply: yes, but we played beautiful.
I didn't watch football back then and I doubt that we started to play good right away under Crujff. We needed a few years to start to click and implement his ideas.
The point is: in today's Barca, no coach will get a credit for not winning anything for 2 years and keeping his job.
So, even Crujff wasn't able to produce magic right away.
He won his first La liga in his 3rd season here.

Let's move forward to Rijkaard.
A similar story.
It was a summer of 2003.
We won our last LA Liga under Van Gaal in 1999.
Since then, champions were: 2000 Deportivo, 2001 Real, 2002 Valencia, 2003 Real.
And even worse, in 1998, 2000 and 2002, Real won 3 CLs with Galacticos.
So, Real was banging La Ligas and 3 CLs.
Valencia was winning La Ligas and played 2 Cl finals in 2000 and 2001.
And we? Well, we ended:
4th in 2001, 17 points behind RM, and behind Deportivo and Mallorca.
4th in 2002, 11 points behind Valencia, and behind Deportivo and Real.
And the best thing: we ended 6th (lol) in 2003, 22 points behind RM. And ended behind Sociedad, Deportivo, Celta and Valencia.

So, we barely qualified for a CL in 2001 and 2002.
And then missed a CL in 2003/04, after finishing 6th in 2003' season.

So, when we hired coach and gave him time to try his ideas: we had 14 years prior to that with 1 La Liga win. And Real has just won 3 La Ligas in a row, and eventually after first 2 years of Crujff, Real won 5 La Ligas in a row.
In 2003, Real was winning CLs, and we were finishing 4th, 4th and 6th in the last 3 La Liga seasons.
In 2003' we had elections and Laporta won.
Now, since we were an utter shit back then, it was a good idea to try something new, just like with Crujff.
So, Laporta with an advice from Crujff: gave a job to Rijkaard.

But remember: we were an utter shit, so it was ok to try something new.
But even when Rijkaard came, we turned from a shit to even bigger shit.
After 15 rounds of 2003/04 season, we had 5 wins, 5 draws and 5 defeats.
Out of 45 points, we won 20.
And we were iirc 12th on a table in Decemeber.

Rijkaard was on a verge of sacking and he was given 2-3 more matches and he needed to win in all of them.
Luckily, a team won 3 matches in the next 4 matches.
And won 15 out of the last 20 La Liga matches and we almost won a title in the end (finished 2nd behind Valencia).

But anyway, what is the point of my story?
= you can't expect big changes in times like today when we are winning.

Crujff came after 14 years with 1 La Liga.
Rijkaard came after 4 years without trophies and after finishing 4th, 4th and 6th in La Liga.

Even Pep came and made a rehaul when Rijkaard didn't win anything in his last 2 years here.

So, more or less, we were shit for years before those glorious years.
And fans weren't spoiled back then.

When Crujff came and when we had 1 La Liga in 14 years, fans surely weren't saying: we need to play good, we need this, we need that etc.
Crujff brought all of that, but we would be happy even with trophies back then.
When Rijkaard came, we didn't play beautiful in the first season.
But people were happy because we showed a fighting spirit and came from the 12th place to almost winning a title. We had faith heart and spark again.

Now, imagine a season 2019/20:
If we'll win La Liga, and if we will play EV's uglyball=people will say: fuck him, sack him.
If we'll lose La Liga and a CL and play beautiful=people will say: sack him. He is wasting Messi's final years, we need trophies RIGHT AWAY.
If we will get a new coach in 2020:
If he will play beautiful and lose La Liga and a CL, people will say again=sack him. We are again wasting Messi's final years
If he will win in an ugly way, again=sack him, this is not Barca. We need to play beautiful.

Even worse, as I mentioned in a point no5, even if we would win and play nice, but let's say with Busi-Raki-someone midfield, and if Frenkie/Arthur would be on a bench, people would again say: fuck this shit. Get this clown out, we need to play Arthur/Frenkie, they are our future.
So, basically, just as I have said in the beginning, in order to have happy fans, a coach needs to:
1. play beautiful
2. win titles RIGHT AWAY
3. play La Masia players and have points 1 and 2
4. play fan's favorite players, paired with points 1, 2 and 3
5. on top of that, fans would require: a good board, good sporting directors and sensible transfers

Now, when you go back and look at our history:
1. Crujff needed 2 years to win titles, he would have been sacked in a current era because we can't wait for 2 years
2. Rijkaard needed 1 year to click. Today: maybe he would get sacked, hard to tell.
3. Pep is the only coach EVER who clicked right away.
He played beautiful, he was winning titles, he used La Masia kids.
But even he had stupid man management decisions with Etoo, Zlatan and bad transfers of Fabregas, Alexis, Chyngry.

Anyway, a point of my post is:
Barca is a weird club, not a normal club.
Man Utd is a normal club, they are looking only for a sport results.
The same with Bayern, Juve, Milan etc.

With Barca:
1. we are a symbol of Catalonia. Catalonia has political problems with Spain for 10s of years.
So, Barca is not just football, but more than a club in terms of politics.
So, when Real is winning, that is a knife stabbed in Barca's heart and Barca is forced to do crazy moves to regain position no1.
2. further, Barca is spoiled in the last 20-30 years with a lot of titles and we have crazy expectations today.
We want titles right away, and to play Joga Bonita, and to play La Masia kids.
It is hard to get everything.
3. further, add Catalan's latino (hot blooded and emotional roots) and you have a recipe for a disaster.
4. add presidents, boards, clans, money, egos and shaddy guys wanted to be on top.

So, my point is: Pep's Barca and things surrounding our club in 2008-2012 is not a usual Barca.
That was some weird, successful and calm Barca.
In 90% of other years during our history, we were a chaotic, too emotional club with crazy decision and impatience.

To some extent, this is why me, Khaled and other guys aren't THAT harsh on EV.
For younger fans, they were spoiled with Pep's era, beautiful football, La Masia, not too many crazy transfers, a good board.
But again, that happened like once in our history.
Majority of other years are as chaotic as a current era. Except that we are at least winning La Ligas now (ok, I know, we have Messi, but still..)

Also, when people say: nothing can be worse than a current season...
I will just post one story from early 00's:
1. 1999/2000 season, it was Van Gaal's 3rd season. He won LA Ligas in his first 2 years and finished 2nd in 1999/2000 behind Deportivo.
A press and fans hated Van Gaal and wanted him gone.
They all thought that better times will come.
We hired Lorenzo Serra Ferrer that summer as our new coach.
Ferrer was like Valverde, a random La Liga coach, who coached Mallorca and Betis before Barca.
2. 2000/01:
Van Gaal finished 2nd in 2000' and a new coach Ferrer ended as 4th in 2001'.
Fans thought that better times will come after Van Gaal, yet we dropped even lower, to a 4th place.
Ferrer was sacked after 31 rounds since we were in danger of losing 4th spot (Champions league).
We hired a new coach, a former player Charles Rexach who played for 16 years for Barca (1965-1981).
We were 5th before the last round, 3 points behind the 4th placed Valencia, and we needed a win against them in the last round to earn a 4th place and a Champions league.
And then this magical match happened.
It was 2:2 until the 90th minute:

3. Rexach kept his position for a new 2001/02 season.
In that season, we again ended 4th in La Liga.
We lost in a CL semis to Real Madrid.
We lost in a CDR to Figueres.
And we even lost Copa de Catalunya to CF Balaguer.
4. Rexach was fired after that, and after 2 bad attempts: Ferrer and Rexach, the board realized that maybe Van Gaal was not that bad.
And then, they brought Van Gaal back in a summer of 2002'.
This time, Van Gaal said that he don't wnat Rivaldo anymore.
And we had to sell Rivaldo in order to make Van Gaal happy.
We were so shit again, that Van Gaal was sacked in January of 2003.
We were so bad that even Gaspart left his position in February of 2003'.
We hired Radomir Antic, another La Liga coach, who won a double with Atletico in 1995/96'.
He was not as badl but he couldn't do too much with our team who were in the bottom half when Van Gaal was sacked.
We eventually finished 6th and secured Uefa Cup.

So, basically, when we fired Van Gaal in 1999/2000 who won 2 La Ligas in 3 years, in the next 3 seasons we had: Ferrer, Rexach, Van Gaal attempt no2 and then Antic.
We often say: it can't be worse than this.
Yet, in early 2000s, more or less, every new coach (except Antic) was actually even worse than a guy who worked before him.
And no matter what they tried, a club and our players sucked and kept losing and losing matches.

In that situation, Laporta won elections, hired director Begiristain and a coach Rijkaard.
But as said, in the first 5-6 Months, Rijkaard also couldn't do anything with our dying team and we dropped to even lower ranks, to a 12th place in La Liga, before we eventually started to play better (only when Rijkaard actually benched and sold ALL players from a previous era who were walking zombies: Frank De Boer, Reiziger, Kluivert, Saviola, Cocu, Riquelme, Mendieta, Overmars, Christanval, Rochemback, Luis Enrique).

Anyway:
1. I don't think that we can have a long term plan in a current era, since we need results right away.
Even Klopp needed a few years at Liverpool before he started winning.
You will never get that amount of time at Barca...
2. further, I am not too sure about saying: it can't be worse than this, regarding coaches and some players.
3. on the other hand, an improvement in play, running and desire has always came when we turned a page and got rid of more or less all players from a previous era (Crujff, Rijkaard, Pep).

Cool story oldie - Your arrogance and so-called-knowledge about Barca was given a tight slap by a fellow fan, whom you called a baby btw, who may/may not be as old as you are but definitely is matured unlike you.

 

[Donatello]

Have you guys ever had a job or something in which you needed to make risks?

Yes, I do. I work in fintech.

Imagine if you have a company which is earning you enough money for a living.
But, you have a feeling that you could earn more if you would change some things in that company.
But also, on the other hand, you could bankrupt or lose a lot of money if your new decision turn bad.

Look, there's a thing called calculated risk. In this case, gambling on a new manager will be calculated risk considering we have the like of Messi, Pique, Busi who will do well even without instructions. Add to that a WC squad which is already underperforming under the current scenario, there's a little chance that a "risk" would worsen the situation.

In your terms, we're already losing money and also very big losses last 2 summers (2 UCL), so its better to take a new direction.

I really don't mean anything bad, but majority of posters always have (for me) childish what if ideas, where a risk is always a way to go.
And where that famous line works: it can't be worse than this.

That's true though. I mean we're already trailing 5 pts from Atleti after just 3 games playing below average football. So, we're on course to loose the league. If I were a company, I'd fire the manager just based on projections and past experiences. But, we're still keeping him, thus defying the logic.

So, MTL Barca, I am asking you again: you have a private company which is earning let's say 100K Euros per year which is enough for you, your family, your kids and for wages of your employees.
But... There is one guy in your neighborhood who is having a similar job and he is earning 200K per year.
But also, what people often neglect, there is 5 other dudes in your area who are struggling and who are earning only 30k per year and don't have enough to pay bills.

This is Barca's forum and it is easy to say: fuck EV or a similar coach, let's risk, it will probably turn out fine. If not, well, eventually after 2-3-4 attempts, it will turn out fine.
But again, would you do that if this was your life, your family, your job, your invested money.

In real life, your job is EV.
Not good (Champions league), but decent (La Liga titles). You have enough money for living.
But you don't have as much as that guy with 200k earning (Champions league analogy), but you are way better than a majority (those guys who do the same job but struggle to pay bills with 30k earnings).

But you don't get this.

In real life,

Guy earning 30K, has neither resources, nor talent, nor does he know how to use them. Let's call him A
Guy earning 200k, has the resources, has the talent and knows very well how to use them. Let's call him B
Even if you put B in A's position, he'll end up making way more in a year or two.
Similiarly if you put A in B's position, he'll end up making way less in a year or two.

EV is that guy. He isn't bad, but he isn't good either. He's just wasting the resources and the talent that he has in hand.

Now, if this was a real life, I am betting that 90% of guys wouldn't make suicidal moves and investments.
You would try with minor investments. If they wouldn't work, you would continue with the old way.
If minor investments and changes would work, you would continue with further small investments.

But we are not running some small company, we're comparabale to a bank or a hedge fund, and trust me they do take a lot of risks (mostly calculated ones) and guys like EV would either have never reached this high, or would've been fired by now if they did and already been replaced by someone else.

It doesn't mean that I am against risks.
But you guys would be fired after 7 days since you would be making risks too often, in every single case.

Yes, you're right.

But as I said earlier there are calculated risks that you can take, which don't have that bad consequences.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Have you guys ever had a job or something in which you needed to make risks?

Imagine if you have a company which is earning you enough money for a living.
But, you have a feeling that you could earn more if you would change some things in that company.
But also, on the other hand, you could bankrupt or lose a lot of money if your new decision turn bad.

I really don't mean anything bad, but majority of posters always have (for me) childish what if ideas, where a risk is always a way to go.
And where that famous line works: it can't be worse than this.

So, MTL Barca, I am asking you again: you have a private company which is earning let's say 100K Euros per year which is enough for you, your family, your kids and for wages of your employees.
But... There is one guy in your neighborhood who is having a similar job and he is earning 200K per year.
But also, what people often neglect, there is 5 other dudes in your area who are struggling and who are earning only 30k per year and don't have enough to pay bills.

This is Barca's forum and it is easy to say: fuck EV or a similar coach, let's risk, it will probably turn out fine. If not, well, eventually after 2-3-4 attempts, it will turn out fine.
But again, would you do that if this was your life, your family, your job, your invested money.

In real life, your job is EV.
Not good (Champions league), but decent (La Liga titles). You have enough money for living.
But you don't have as much as that guy with 200k earning (Champions league analogy), but you are way better than a majority (those guys who do the same job but struggle to pay bills with 30k earnings).

Now, if this was a real life, I am betting that 90% of guys wouldn't make suicidal moves and investments.
You would try with minor investments. If they wouldn't work, you would continue with the old way.
If minor investments and changes would work, you would continue with further small investments.

So, this is a part where I don't agree with majority of users here.
I don't think that EV is good.
But I don't think that he is as bad you guys are saying.
Also, I am not sure that a new coach would be able to win even these things which he is winning.

Here are some points why I disagree about a risk ratio:
1. I am following Barca since 90s, and imo, this is a rating of our coaches since then:
World class: Pep, Crujff
Very good: Rijkaard, Lucho, Van Gaal in his first stint
Average with a moderate success: EV, Tito, Robson
Ok but without sucess: Antic
Meh to bad: Ferrer, Rexach, Tata

So, at least for me, when you put on paper all Barca's coaches since 90s, EV is still around average when you compare: titles, beautiful play, La Masia players.

Where is EV bad?
= well, he is bad if you compared it with era from 2008 till today.
But even then, can you say that Tito's team was that better?
Tito's team played on an autopilot after Pep's era.
Tata's team was shit.
People have excuses: we had injuries, a team was bad.
But what about: EV played without Neymar. He had a shitty forever injured Dembele and a horrible fit Flopinho, plus a current core was very old and lost motivation.
Or Lucho? when we mention Lucho, people immediately think about a treble from 2014/15.
But even in that season, we played like a shit: both ugly and skipping a midfield in the first part of a season (plus we had horrible results).
And then it clicked in a spring of 2105 and we won a treble.
We played good in an autumn of 2015 and then we returned to shit.
Have you guys forgot how we played in the last 18 Months under Lucho?
Atletico 2:0, Psg 4:0, Juve 3:0 in a CL.
In La Liga, our 433 started to look like shit under Lucho and we were outplayed in a middle on every away match. Betis, Las Palmas and Celta looked like Liverpool against our 3men midfield all the time.
Mats was called frozen in those days.
Defense was leaking goals left and right.
Midfield was non existant.
MSN played hot and cold, with Neymar going MIA in springs of 2016 and 2017.
So, basically, outside of a spring in 2015 and autumn on 2015, during Lucho we played like shit in terms of play and results:
1. in autumn of 2014
2. spring 2016
3. whole 2016/17 season

So, when people say: it can't be worse than EV...
Really, are you guys completely honest?

1. Pep was awesome
2. Tito, it is hard to be objective about him because he died and people don't want to post bad things about his lack of tactics now
3. Tata was lost, shit and totally lost the reigns
4. Lucho was good for 12 Months and bad for 24 Months where we needed to play with a false RB-CM Roberto in 343 to regain back some control in midfield

So, honestly, except Pep, was any of these coaches THAT better or better at all than EV?
Lucho has a treble which is masking otherwise quite meh 3-years stint.
Tata has nothing.
Tito has La Liga, the same as EV.

So, again, I agree with you that EV is not good enough.
But for anyone who watched football or business and making risks for 20-30 years, you should know that chances are way higher that a new guy will be even worse than EV.
The same as how any new signing for our club has around 1/3 chances to make it here and 2/3 to flop.
Or how any La Masia kid has around 90% chances to not make it.
I will pull numbers from my ass and say that every new coach, not named Pep, will probably have around 70% chance to have even worse results than a current EV.

Why?
1. well, Messi is 32. He will be 33 at the end of a season. A moment will come soon when Messi will not be a gamechanger anymore.
That means that we will be a team of mortals just like pre Messi.
And pre Messi, we had other leaders, like Ronaldinho.
But Ronaldinho alone was not enough. He had Etoo and a playmaker Deco (plus Xavi).
Begiristain and Rijkaard needed a few years to build a team who will have enough of leaders and playmakers so that we could actually win.
Today, we are in a deep hole.
We can't build a team for the future, because everything evolves around Messi.
Imagine if Messi retires tomorrow or misses a whole season due to an injury.
Who will carry our team? Griezmann, lol? Good luck with that.
We had Dumbele, fat Suarez, a bad fit new guy Griezmann and that's it.
So, Messi's impact will be weaker and weaker each new Month.
Guys who should take a leadership after him=don't exist in our team yet. And we will need years of a hit and miss transfers until we will find some new Figo, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho to lead our team after Messi.
Further, a core is finished. Busi can only be weaker and weaker each new season.
Raki is maybe already done.
Vidal also.
Alba soon.
Roberto sucks either way.
Suarez is done.
And yet, new guys are even worse than these old players.
Further, we are in a specific situation since we never won so many titles.
Pique, Busi and co are complacent.
We will need to turn the page.
It won't be possible for 1-2-3 years.
So, we will have 2-3 more years of sinking deeper and deeper.
Remember that BOTH Rijkaard and Pep turned the page and SOLD 10-15 players from a current era.
We will have to do the same. The problem is: we can't do it yet, Busi, Pique, Suarez and not yet ready to go.
Yet, we don't have replacements.
Plus we don't have money due to high wages, 105m gross yearly for Messi, 145M Dembele, 165m Coutinho and Barto.
Also, Barto will be here for 2 more years, so you can't expect improvements.
Also, Barto even wanted to go all in for Neymar, lol, and he will return for him in 3 Months.

So, in short:
1. Messi is getting older and won't be a gamechanger anymore
2. a core is old, and new guys except a rare examples are bad
3. our hands are locked for 2 more years with Barto
4. we won't have money for a new team after Barto, it seems
5. we will need a few years to rebuild a new team WITHOUT Messi, which will be hard since for 10 years everything was revolving around him
6. now add to that those points from a previous post: Barca's fans are spoiled and entitles and want: titles right away, beautiful play right away.
7. Catalonia has political problems, we are emotional and hot headed, so it is hard to cool down and make a longterm plan for 5 years
8. none coach in a current era will be given 2-3 years to slowly rebuild a team without results (like Crujff, Klopp)

Now, when you sum it all, and if we agree that we can't get Pep or Klopp...
Do you think that a random guy like Klopp, Sarri, Allegri, Conte, Setien would be able to EVEN WIN LA LIGA in this mess, with all these problems mentioned above?
You guys are obsessed with a CL. That ship has sailed.
If it happens, happens.
If not, oh well, we such either way.

We should turn to winning La Ligas.
Now, short terms, since Barto will be here for 2 more years:
1. all coaches will be screwed until Barto is here. So, whom could you hire to be a coach in this mess?
2. longterm, after Barto:
1) we will lose Messi surely
2) we will need to offload: Busi, Pique, Alba, Suarez, Raki, Vidal
3) we will need to build a new team and buy at least 2 new Ronaldinhos/Rivaldos.
We don't have money for that. And there are no available Ronaldinhos in site.
4) even if we buy 2 new star players and surround them with a functional team, it will take 2-3 years until it will click and gel correctly.

So, imo, 2 years under Barto will be: it is what it is, not due to EV; but due to all problems mentioned above.
After Barto, we will have a long rebuilding phase.
Crujff needed 3 years to click with his team.
Coaches in Gaspart's era (and later) needed 5 years to finally click.
Pep is the only guy who clicked right away. But again, he had cheating codes named Messi and Mr. TikiTaka himself called Xavi.

Now, when you sum it all and my analogy regarding your job: which is good. But it could be better, or easily way worse if you make a wrong move.
Do you still think that sacking EV is an absolute must?
That every coach will be better?
That random guys like Setien will be better?
That even guys like Valdes or Xavi would be better? How would they cope with their former teammates? Try to bench Busi, Alba or Messi...

So, one more time, I don't disagree with you guys about EV.
I just don't think that he is AS BAD as you claim.
And I don't agre with percentages and estimations how: everyone will be better than this.

Remember how people laughed at Mou at Man utd and how he is ruining their club with their ideas.
Solskjaer came, they had a few wins due to motivation and a fresh start.
And a few days ago, I have read that they have 3 wins in the last 17 matches.
A phrase: "It can't be worse than Mou" sounds different today.

Or just look at our team: it can't be worse than Suarez.
Then we buy Griezmann, and we are reaching new levels of horrible with him as a No9.

Or: it can't be worse than turtles Busi-Raki-Vidal.
After only 2-3 matches, Alena and Roberto are dead as midfielders.
So, it can get MUCH WORSE than Busi-Raki it seems...

In Croatia, a lot of people jumped and say that we play better without Rakitic.
Only to play 1:1 with Azerbaijan 3 days later, with Modric being exposed and clueless both in midfield, attack and defense without Rakitic.

So, we shouldn't be that fast with these: it can't be worse than XX or YY.
When in reality, for Barca's level, it is always way more likely that a new coach or a new player will be=30% success, 70% a failure or worse than a current guy.

Now when you calmly think about all of this.
Whom would you hire tomorrow?
Don't say Pep or Klopp, btw

Don't fix what ain't broken=wasn't invented for no reason.

It doesn't mean that I am against risks.
But you guys would be fired after 7 days since you would be making risks too often, in every single case.

That analogy just doesn't work out. But maybe that already shows the difference in mindset here. A club like Barca should ALWAYS aim for the highest goals. It isn't some small company that's just there to make a living, it's one of the biggest football clubs in the world with the best player in the world.

Valverde got 2 years. We're already in his 3rd season and it's the same old shit and the results are even getting worse. First season had a rough start (Neymar drama) and was at least numbers wise very successful. So Roma MIGHT check out as an accident. But then the 2nd season came, more money spent, more time to work but everything stayed the same or got worse. Bottled CL AGAIN, worst league finish since Tata but luckily Madrid clubs were even worse and then also lost the Copa final to Valencia. Seriously, how big of a risk could another coach be compared to this? But he was allowed to stay again, but oh surprise it's the same old shit again. Not the slightest bit of development.

The problem with only looking at results (because there isn't anything besides that for EV) is that in the moment where results drop everything will fall apart, so thinking about the overall development, the future and possible changes is important even when results are (still) ok/good. Now go back to your real life company analogy and think about if the most successful companies operate like that? "Just keep going sales are ok" until suddenly "oh shit oh shit sales are dropping what now???". No, it's important to always try to expand, invest, get ahead and at least be on par with the competition. And going back to football that means a big club like Barca has to ALWAYS question every position and try to get the best possible solution, no matter if it's about a player, the medical stuff or the coach. And "ok" just shouldn't be something that automatically gets you a free pass simply becauese of fearing any form of risk/change. The fact that EV was renewed so early and seemingly never even really questioned by Barto is one of the things that annoy me the most about the current board.

Also imo the risk just isn't as big as you make it out to be because Valverde is so mediocre, but honestly i'm already tired of this discussion so i'll do the Ernie and surrender, huge respect for typing up these walls of text

 

[BBZ8800]

Look, there's a thing called calculated risk. In this case, gambling on a new manager will be calculated risk considering we have the like of Messi, Pique, Busi who will do well even without instructions. Add to that a WC squad which is already underperforming under the current scenario, there's a little chance that a "risk" would worsen the situation.

That analogy just doesn't work out. But maybe that already shows the difference in mindset here. A club like Barca should ALWAYS aim for the highest goals. It isn't some small company that's just there to make a living, it's one of the biggest football clubs in the world with the best player in the world.

Guys, fair replies.
I will also reply shorter.

Your analogy about a company who should aim for a highest goals.
Well, I agree.

But let's just agree to disagree in one thing:
1. you both think that Barca has resources to fight for all titles
2. while I think that our team is one of the worst since Gaspart's era and that we are ultimate shit, shiny on paper, but bad in reality, not ONLY because of EV

For a few years I am reading these posts how we have the best team in the world, in terms of players.
Again, I personally think that our team:
1. is full of past their prime oldies
2. while new players are mostly a joke.
Remember, one 1 ago, Cule4Life, Tekkers, Messi2140 and guys were calling me after every match and making jokes, because I said that:
1. Dembele is dumb and a bad fit
2. Malcom is poor for Barca
3. Alena, squad player at best. meh
4. Semedo, horrible
5. Arthur, not good as people are expecting

Even 1 year ago, people thought that we have a good team because of these 5 guys, lol.
Fast forward for one year, Dembele and Malcom are dead in terms of Barca.
Alena is probably meh. Semedo is still horrible.
The jury is out on Arthur, I still think that he will turn as nowhere near as good as you guys are expecting.
Basically, when you remove Messi, our team is very, very, very, I can't repeat it enough: VEEEERY BAD.
Also, I have read one article a few days ago about a worth of a starting 11.
And Barca was not even in top5 in Europe, iirc.

If you check transfermarkt's worth of a starting 11, this is what I have found out today:
Manchester City 905M
Liverpool 840M
Barcelona 810M

It seems that you guys are overrating our players, their worth and their quality a lot.

So, let's agree to disagree...
You guys think that we have an awesome team, who needs a good manager and we will be on fire again.
I think: we are dead and on a downward spiral which will last for 3-4-5 years.
This is a painful end of an era.
Old players are worse and worse and it will take time until we hit a rock bottom with them and get rid of them.
Then we will need a new guys, whom we don't have (a hint: Alena and Puig are not those guys).

You guys are also obsessed with a CL due to 2 things:
1. we are spoiled by Pep's era and recent years where we were CL favorites in every season
2. due to a fact that you think that we still have an awesome team
So, I understand where are you coming from when you say: we should aim for the best, we are a big company etc.
You think that we have what it takes and you guys are willing to risk.
I think that we are dying, and I taking what I can get, everything is better than nothing=aka La Ligas, at least.

In my estimation, we will follow Man Utd's path in the last few years.
No matter who will come (a manager), we will sink lower and lower.
No matter whom we will buy, we will sink lower and lower.
UNTIL we accept that we are not the best team in the world anymore.
UNTIL we stop being entitled.
UNTIL we get humble and hardworking club again.

Our rise during Crujff and Rijkaard came after bad years, when we weren't spoiled and entitled.
We were willing to work, run and stay quiet.
A current Barca (players, a board, media, fans), due to too much success is too much about show, egos, arguing, showboating (Neymar) etc.

So, yes, we have different views.
I think that we are entering into a long downward spiral in the next few years.
And this is why I am happy with "a damage control" of accepting "even" La Ligas.
** Someone will say as always: we can win La Ligas even without EV.
Well, in 4 years before EV, we won only 2 LA Ligas and lost 2 of them.
If Messi is a guarantee of La Ligas, how come that Tata managed to lose it, and Lucho had only 12 good Months out of 36 Months here?
So, yes, you take La Ligas as granted and as peanuts.

 

[Andresito]

Had to scroll 6 km of text to get to the bottom of the page lol.

This is what 31-year old Lallana said about him transitioning into a deeper number 6 role:
“I have not gone into it too deeply. Jordan [Henderson] told me I need to watch Frenkie de Jong.
The way he plays it, he kind of dribbles a little bit more than other sixes would, which obviously brings a bit of risk but that is in my game."

Players from UCL winners Liverpool are actually watching and learning from a 22-year old who had like 1 season at the top level. Says a lot about Frenkie's talent and reputation.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Guys, fair replies.
I will also reply shorter.

Your analogy about a company who should aim for a highest goals.
Well, I agree.

But let's just agree to disagree in one thing:
1. you both think that Barca has resources to fight for all titles
2. while I think that our team is one of the worst since Gaspart's era and that we are ultimate shit, shiny on paper, but bad in reality, not ONLY because of EV

For a few years I am reading these posts how we have the best team in the world, in terms of players.
Again, I personally think that our team:
1. is full of past their prime oldies
2. while new players are mostly a joke.
Remember, one 1 ago, Cule4Life, Tekkers, Messi2140 and guys were calling me after every match and making jokes, because I said that:
1. Dembele is dumb and a bad fit
2. Malcom is poor for Barca
3. Alena, squad player at best. meh
4. Semedo, horrible
5. Arthur, not good as people are expecting

Even 1 year ago, people thought that we have a good team because of these 5 guys, lol.
Fast forward for one year, Dembele and Malcom are dead in terms of Barca.
Alena is probably meh. Semedo is still horrible.
The jury is out on Arthur, I still think that he will turn as nowhere near as good as you guys are expecting.
Basically, when you remove Messi, our team is very, very, very, I can't repeat it enough: VEEEERY BAD.
Also, I have read one article a few days ago about a worth of a starting 11.
And Barca was not even in top5 in Europe, iirc.

If you check transfermarkt's worth of a starting 11, this is what I have found out today:
Manchester City 905M
Liverpool 840M
Barcelona 810M

It seems that you guys are overrating our players, their worth and their quality a lot.

So, let's agree to disagree...
You guys think that we have an awesome team, who needs a good manager and we will be on fire again.
I think: we are dead and on a downward spiral which will last for 3-4-5 years.
This is a painful end of an era.
Old players are worse and worse and it will take time until we hit a rock bottom with them and get rid of them.
Then we will need a new guys, whom we don't have (a hint: Alena and Puig are not those guys).

You guys are also obsessed with a CL due to 2 things:
1. we are spoiled by Pep's era and recent years where we were CL favorites in every season
2. due to a fact that you think that we still have an awesome team
So, I understand where are you coming from when you say: we should aim for the best, we are a big company etc.
You think that we have what it takes and you guys are willing to risk.
I think that we are dying, and I taking what I can get, everything is better than nothing=aka La Ligas, at least.

In my estimation, we will follow Man Utd's path in the last few years.
No matter who will come (a manager), we will sink lower and lower.
No matter whom we will buy, we will sink lower and lower.
UNTIL we accept that we are not the best team in the world anymore.
UNTIL we stop being entitled.
UNTIL we get humble and hardworking club again.

Our rise during Crujff and Rijkaard came after bad years, when we weren't spoiled and entitled.
We were willing to work, run and stay quiet.
A current Barca (players, a board, media, fans), due to too much success is too much about show, egos, arguing, showboating (Neymar) etc.

So, yes, we have different views.
I think that we are entering into a long downward spiral in the next few years.
And this is why I am happy with "a damage control" of accepting "even" La Ligas.
** Someone will say as always: we can win La Ligas even without EV.
Well, in 4 years before EV, we won only 2 LA Ligas and lost 2 of them.
If Messi is a guarantee of La Ligas, how come that Tata managed to lose it, and Lucho had only 12 good Months out of 36 Months here?
So, yes, you take La Ligas as granted and as peanuts.

Barca absolutely has the resources (= money, reputation) to fight for all titles. Are the resources spent perfectly? Far from it. But thats another problem. But as always, nothing of that makes Valverde any better. I'd still say the squad should be able to compete, i mean Barca wasn't that far from winning the CL even with Valverde.

It's always possible to make excuses and shift the topic to Bartomeu, or the squad, or club de amigos or whatever but in the end there is pretty much never an argument of what exactly Valverde does so great that he deserves to get a free pass?

It's not about taking la liga for granted, but more about not seeing Valverde as the league master that he sometimes get's portrayed. Lucho always had more points (90+) than Ernie in 18/19 (87), how exactly is Madrid teams performing a lot worse Valverdes achievement? Even Tata got as much points (+ more goals scored and less conceded), and he is always brought up as like the prime example for a terrible fit. Shouldn't the league GOAT himself easily outperform that even with a weaker squad?

If every coach since Pep managed to get us more or less similar league results, how big can the risk really be?

 

[serghei]

If you check transfermarkt's worth of a starting 11, this is what I have found out today:
Manchester City 905M
Liverpool 840M
Barcelona 810M

This is some real level of twisting the facts.

Let's compare Semedo and Alexander Arnold. Two starting RBs under Valverde and Klopp, for Barcelona and Liverpool.
Transfermarkt numbers, the source you posted to show us how Liverpool has better resources than us.

2017-18 season:

Semedo - 20 millions
Arnold - 1.5 millions

Now:

Semedo - 40 millions
Arnold - 80 millions

Do your percentages thing now man. How much is the growth rate of Trent under Klopp (must be something like 5300%, and Semedo's under Valverde is 100%)? So the player who had Klopp as a manager is worth now 53 times more than 2 years ago. The player who had Valverde, only 2 times more. So the player managed by Klopp developed 26 times more than the one managed by Valverde, even though he was initially rated as being 13 times less valuable than the player Valverde got.

So, let me get this straight.

If, in two years, De Jong is going to be rated at just a bit more than now, while Wijnaaldum becomes the best midfielder in the world under Klopp, rated at 150m, you're gonna say how Klopp got the best players, and poor Valverde only got De Jong?

 

[serghei]

For a few years I am reading these posts how we have the best team in the world, in terms of players.
Again, I personally think that our team:
1. is full of past their prime oldies
2. while new players are mostly a joke.
Remember, one 1 ago, Cule4Life, Tekkers, Messi2140 and guys were calling me after every match and making jokes, because I said that:
1. Dembele is dumb and a bad fit
2. Malcom is poor for Barca
3. Alena, squad player at best. meh
4. Semedo, horrible
5. Arthur, not good as people are expecting

Even 1 year ago, people thought that we have a good team because of these 5 guys, lol.

See, this is where your limitations show even more. You automatically use the term 'team', as in the team is only the collection of players. The whole management of the team is completely irrelevant to you. The players always perform the same, under every manager.

For you team = squad. The team is bad so the squad must be bad, because team = squad. And if the squad is bad, well that means Valverde is not that much to blame. Nobody can have any cure for that line of logic. It's just compromised on so many levels.

The team is in fact the fruitful union between management and squad. For a team to achieve grand success, both of them must be at least very good. If one is very good, but the other is bad, the team is not competitive at the highest level.

Liverpool are case of a good squad, with elite management. City are great squad and elite management. Barcelona are great squad and crap management. Juventus are good squad and good management. Madrid last season were good squad and crap management. Ajax decent squad and great management, Tottenham good squad and good management. Atletico, good squad, good management.

This is the only reason why Tottenham had better results in the CL in the last 2 seasons than Barcelona. Not fucking quality of players. It's the management component which in CL is key because all teams in the quarters are from decent up in terms of squad.

Good squad + elite management -> great performances without much focus on star players
Very good squad + crap management -> mediocre, inconsistent performances depending on key players saving the day

 

[xXKonan]

Valverde has had two seasons+This one in progress and the board spending big money on signings so far.

We have had enough time to judge him, especially his tactics that played the biggest role in two humiliating defeats and his terrible football which seen hardly anyone improved that was brought in under him. So why keep making excuses for him?

There shouldn't be any more excuses made for this guy. We have seen time and time again he isn't going to learn nor improve anything. He's just going to keep doing what he usually has been doing because he refuses to learn from his mistakes.

There's plenty of fights worth fighting for but Valverde? it's not worth dying on that hill anymore man.

 

[soul24rage]

** Someone will say as always: we can win La Ligas even without EV.
Well, in 4 years before EV, we won only 2 LA Ligas and lost 2 of them.
If Messi is a guarantee of La Ligas, how come that Tata managed to lose it, and Lucho had only 12 good Months out of 36 Months here?
So, yes, you take La Ligas as granted and as peanuts.

Didn't the other posters already disproved this part of your post?
Even Lahoz, the ref on Barca 1-1 ATM in the 13/14 season, very recently admitted that with VAR, Barca should have won the league. I couldn't find the english version of what Lahoz said.

https://www.pasionfutbol.com/la-lig...oz-messi-error-var-la-liga-20190911-0030.html

In the 16-17 season, if the no goal that crossed the line in that Real Betis match was counted, maybe, just maybe we could have won the league that season. (Plus that season was the best RM side in recent times).
[youtube]Sx-X0Vkpc7E[/youtube]

Not saying that EV is a bad manager, he's just not a Barca manager for me. I'm sure if Tata or Lucho were the manager for the past 2 years, we still would have won the 2 leagues.

 

[serghei]

Not saying that EV is a bad manager, he's just not a Barca manager for me. I'm sure if Tata or Lucho were the manager for the past 2 years, we still would have won the 2 leagues.

The ones who don't believe that need to have their brains checked. Seriously.

That's like saying that we wouldn't have won the CL final in 2009 had Alves and Abidal not been suspended.

 

[BBZ8800]

It's not about taking la liga for granted, but more about not seeing Valverde as the league master that he sometimes get's portrayed. Lucho always had more points (90+) than Ernie in 18/19 (87), how exactly is Madrid teams performing a lot worse Valverdes achievement? Even Tata got as much points (+ more goals scored and less conceded), and he is always brought up as like the prime example for a terrible fit. Shouldn't the league GOAT himself easily outperform that even with a weaker squad?

If every coach since Pep managed to get us more or less similar league results, how big can the risk really be?

2014 Tata 87 points
2015 Lucho 94 points
2016 Lucho 91 points
2017 Lucho 90 points
2018 Ernie 87 points
2019 Ernie 87 points

If you want to use points as an excuse, let's take this into the account:
1. Barca won a title early in EV's season, so later in a season we relaxed and played with 50%.
Also, for the first time ever, Messi was actually rested in final games of a season before CL matches, unlike in previous years.

For example, Messi's minutes in La Liga:
2015: 3375 minutes, 37 starts
2016: 2730 minutes, 31 starts (injured in autumn)
2017: 2833 minutes, 32 starts
2018: 2997 minutes, 32 starts
2019: 2710 minutes, 29 starts

Messi's injuries:
2019: =25 days
2018: =8 days
2017: =30 days
2016: =75 days
2015: =2 days

Under Lucho, Messi didn't play only when he was injured.
When he was fit, Messi was playing all the time for 90 minutes.
Under EV, for the first time ever, we have seen Messi resting and not playing some games even though he is fit.
Especially against Mickey Mouse opponents.

2018/19 season, final rounds:
Villareal 4:4: Suarez, Malcom, Coutinho attack
Huesca 0:0: Todibo, Murillo, Alena, Puig, Vague, Malcom, Boateng. In attack we had: Boateng-Dembele.
Celta 2:0: Todibo, Vermaelen, Wague, Alena, Puig... In attack: Dembele, Boateng, Malcom.
Or the 38th round vs Eibar 2:2, where we played Messi-Malcom-Roberto attack, lol.

You have 4 matches here.
If we would have played with a full team, we would have probably won at least 2 matches, and the most likely even 3 matches.
That means, current 87 points plus 6, 9 or 12 points.
So, if we had played with Messi and the best lineup all the time, like in previous seasons, EV would have won 93, 96 or 99 points.
So, if you want to play "point's game", EV is again not as shit as you guys claim.

Good squad + elite management -> great performances without much focus on star players
Very good squad + crap management -> mediocre, inconsistent performances depending on key players saving the day

Serghei, you are repeating all the time this management thing.
But again:
When Pep was at Barca:
1. he picked YOUNG players
2. he picked players with IQ
3. he picked players who had good technique
4. he picked HUNGRY and MOTIVATED players

When Pep came to City:
= he did the same

When Klopp came to Liverpool:
= he did the same

Ok, Pep and Klopp would surely "do" something with Frenkie, Arthur and probably Semedo.
On the other hand: no coach in the world can fix Dumbele.
Or mediocre Malcom.
Or old grannies Raki, Busi, Suarez, Vidal, Alba etc.

I mean, yes, I get it. Pep is better in developing and improving players than EV.
But you guys act as if Pep/Klopp would fix every single of our players and you offer that silly alibi all the time: which of your player improved under EV?
Again, OLD players can't improve. They will naturally decline in each season (Raki, Busi, Vidal, Suarez, Alba and even Messi).
Bad players can't be improved to a required level (Malcom, Denis, Gomes).
Dumb players can't be improved (Dembele).
Regarding youngsters, there are lots of youngsters whom Pep tried at Barca, but they failed.
So, he is not a magician. He can improve a player if a player has: technique, IQ, motivation, legs.
Majority of our players lack in 1-2-3 or 4 areas.
If Pep came here now, he would probably sell almost all oldies and half of our team.
He surely wouldn't build a team around Dumbele, Malcom, Puig and similar.

So, for the 1000th time, I agree with you guys that Pep or Klopp would get more from our team in general.
But still, you guys neglect the fact how SHIT our team is when you remove emotions, Barca's glasses and Messi.
I mean: Sergi Roberto, Malcom in last season, Dumbele lol, Alena who can't play for young Spanish teams, Puig who has never played for any youth NT team lol, Wague who is on a verge of murdering everyone in every single sliding tackle.
And then a bunch of old grannies.
Basically the only playable players who are not old are: Mats, Lenglet, Frenkie, Arthur and maybe Semedo.
Those are the only 5 players on which you can claim that EV is doing a bad job.
All other players are old and finished so they can't improve or are an ultimate overrated shit.

Didn't the other posters already disproved this part of your post?
Even Lahoz, the ref on Barca 1-1 ATM in the 13/14 season, very recently admitted that with VAR, Barca should have won the league. I couldn't find the english version of what Lahoz said.

https://www.pasionfutbol.com/la-lig...oz-messi-error-var-la-liga-20190911-0030.html

In the 16-17 season, if the no goal that crossed the line in that Real Betis match was counted, maybe, just maybe we could have won the league that season. (Plus that season was the best RM side in recent times).
[youtube]Sx-X0Vkpc7E[/youtube]

Not saying that EV is a bad manager, he's just not a Barca manager for me. I'm sure if Tata or Lucho were the manager for the past 2 years, we still would have won the 2 leagues.

But why do you guys have excuses for everyone?
1. Tito was sick, ok we all agree here
2. poor Tata, his team was injured. Lol.
EV had a fckng Dembele injured for 2 years. Neymar has betrayed us. Umtiti was injured all the time. Vermaelen injured all the time. We didn't have a sub LB. We don't have a single decent RB in our team. We don't have a single speedy player except Dumbele, but he is barely a footballer so I won't count him.
Tata had problems with refs.
3. Lucho had to fight against good RM, right?
Well, that the same RM won a CL in June 2017, and EV won a title in Months after that.
Even worse, RM won a CL in June 2017 and in June 2018.
EV was here all the time.
So, how can Madrid be THAT bad, yet they are banging CLs for fun?
Should I even dare to question a logic and ask: wait: RM was awesome during Pep even though they were an ultimate shit in a CL, but today, when RM won 4 CLs in 6 years, they are bad and EV is having a monkey easy route of winning La Ligas? I mean, a pure gold...
The opponents were strong under Pep, Tata and Lucho.
And we were unlucky in those years. Refs were against us. Injuries were against us. Luck was against us.
While under EV, what? Refs are helping us, lol? Luck is on our side and the opponents are scoring 3 own goals per match and missing sitters for fun? (Yet, remember during Lucho when Bravo was a GK, how in the first 10 rounds the opponents have hit the post like 5-10 times and we won a lot of lucky points).
If you get my point?
For you guys, with EV everything is black and white. He has everything easy, other coaches had to fight way more for everything.

I'm sure if Tata or Lucho were the manager for the past 2 years, we still would have won the 2 leagues.

Sorry, mate, I can't read this revisionism anymore.
Again, have you erased your memory of HOW SHIT we were under Lucho in the last 18 Months?

If you forgot, ok, I'll pull my books and numbers now to refresh your memories:
Away matches in that season:
Bilbao 0:1
Alaves 1:5
Gijon 0:5
Celta 4:3
Valencia 2:3, Messi pen for 2:3 in the 94th minute
Sevilla 1:2
Sociedad 1:1
Osasuna 0:3
Villareal 1:1, Messi scored for 1:1 in the 90th minute
Eibar 0:4
Betis 1:1, Suarez scored for 1:1 in the 90th minute
Alaves 0:6
Atletico 1:2, Messi scored 1:2 in the 86 minute
Deportivo 2:1
Granada 1:4
Malaga 2:0
Real 2:3, Messi scored for 2:3 in the 92th minute
Espanyol 0:3
Las Palmas 1:4

Add to this: CDR Hercules away 1:1, Bilbao away 2:1.
Champions league KO matches: Psg 4:0, Juve 3:0.

Guys from above mentioned number of points in Lucho vs EV debate, yet, as explained: EV rested players in the last rounds and played with Alena, Puig, Todibo, Wague and Boateng.
Lucho didn't rest anyone since he was fighting for a title till the last round.
Yet, we won at least 6 points with goals in the 90th-94th minute that season.

I think that a problem is: when someone mentions Lucho, you guys automatically think about a treble season.
And as if you forgot about the rest.
So, after reading posts here, I get an impression that we played an awesome football under Lucho for 3 years.
While we played like shit for 24 Months and we were good for 12 Months.
In the last 18 Months under Lucho, we struggled with 433. We were outrun and outplayed by every midtable team in the middle.
We couldn't keep the ball and we couldn't build attacks.
Now when I am watching some highlights, I see that Mats was forced to play risky passes all the time, since we could get the ball into the opponent's half.

All of you who forgot how shitty we played in the last 18 Months under Lucho, please, look at least at highlights of this match and how shitty we were in everything. Defending and midfield especially.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrIVINl2Uzo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTtLFuS8QCQ

For me, even the shitties EV is better than Lucho's 18 Months.
Today we play ugly and we are winning.
Back then we: played ugly, we couldn't keep the ball and we weren't winning anything.
Psg 4:0 and Juve 3:0 from that season were not a coincidence.
We were eaten alive by everyone in midfield. Lucho's 433 didn't work anymore.

 

[serghei]

Serghei, you are repeating all the time this management thing.
But again:
When Pep was at Barca:
1. he picked YOUNG players
2. he picked players with IQ
3. he picked players who had good technique
4. he picked HUNGRY and MOTIVATED players

When Pep came to City:
= he did the same

When Klopp came to Liverpool:
= he did the same

Ok, Pep and Klopp would surely "do" something with Frenkie, Arthur and probably Semedo.
On the other hand: no coach in the world can fix Dumbele.
Or mediocre Malcom.
Or old grannies Raki, Busi, Suarez, Vidal, Alba etc.

I mean, yes, I get it. Pep is better in developing and improving players than EV.
But you guys act as if Pep/Klopp would fix every single of our players and you offer that silly alibi all the time: which of your player improved under EV?
Again, OLD players can't improve. They will naturally decline in each season (Raki, Busi, Vidal, Suarez, Alba and even Messi).
Bad players can't be improved to a required level (Malcom, Denis, Gomes).
Dumb players can't be improved (Dembele).
Regarding youngsters, there are lots of youngsters whom Pep tried at Barca, but they failed.
So, he is not a magician. He can improve a player if a player has: technique, IQ, motivation, legs.
Majority of our players lack in 1-2-3 or 4 areas.
If Pep came here now, he would probably sell almost all oldies and half of our team.
He surely wouldn't build a team around Dumbele, Malcom, Puig and similar.

So, for the 1000th time, I agree with you guys that Pep or Klopp would get more from our team in general.
But still, you guys neglect the fact how SHIT our team is when you remove emotions, Barca's glasses and Messi.
I mean: Sergi Roberto, Malcom in last season, Dumbele lol, Alena who can't play for young Spanish teams, Puig who has never played for any youth NT team lol, Wague who is on a verge of murdering everyone in every single sliding tackle.
And then a bunch of old grannies.
Basically the only playable players who are not old are: Mats, Lenglet, Frenkie, Arthur and maybe Semedo.
Those are the only 5 players on which you can claim that EV is doing a bad job.
All other players are old and finished so they can't improve or are an ultimate overrated shit.

No offense, but you have no clue about what you are talking about.

Managers like Guardiola and Klopp improve every player. From 18 years old, to 32+ years old. There's plenty of players in that City team who are veterans. Fernandinho for example was already a veteran at 31 when Pep got there. Basically played his best football at 32-34 years old. But for some reason he couldn't improve some 28-29 years old players from Barcelona . Suarez is 32, Aguero is 31. Massive difference. Busquets is 31, David Silva is 33. Otamendi is 31, Kompany is 33, Pique is 32. Now seriously, what fucking planet do you live on making up these paper thin arguments that can be easily proven wrong in 2 mins?

Pep can improve 4-5 30-33 years old players from City, and have them playing cohesive superb football, best in the world arguably. But he couldn't do that with 4-5 30-33 years old for Barcelona, who are actually superior to the City players overall (Pique > Otamendi, Busquets = Silva, Suarez, Messi > Aguero, Vidal = Fernandinho, Alba > Delph/Walker), because BBZ says so. Yea, totally makes sense. Pep improved even fucking 29 years old Fabian Delph. 32 years old Otamendi. 29 years old Walker. His fucking team is a combination of veterans and young players, just like Barcelona is. Problem is his 30+ players are playing great, and ours are playing like shit.

And Dembele? He's one of the players who would improve under Guardiola almost 100%. And even if that doesn't make him a sure starter, it would still improve him to at least be a sub of the level of Origi last year for Liverpool. Now you're gonna tell me Origi is a better player than Dembele?

You think Pep would not improve Jordi Alba almost instantly? Lol if Pep got Alba at 27 like Valverde did, he would turn him into by far the best LB in the world. BY FAR. Like there wouldn't even be any competition.

Who was Zinchenko before Pep came at City? Nobody even heard of him a couple of years ago. A far far lesser talent than likes of youngsters Barca have. Plays as a starter now and does it amazingly. Now imagine having the talent pool of Barcelona and La Masia, a school who basically produces exactly the type of players Pep needs to play his style. And thinking he could not develop these players like he is developing some ukrainian kid from City nobody even knew that he existed until 2 years ago.

 

[jamrock]

Serghie kinda destroyed you bbz.

Paper tiger much lol