Frenkie de Jong

[Lapi]

No offense, but you have no clue about what you are talking about...
do you live on making up these paper thin arguments that can be easily proven wrong in 2 mins?

Well, sorry to say but most often he has indeed no clue what he's talking about.
I diligently try to read his list of data with players retired 342 years earlier, results from the 90's, imaginary numeric values given to players, etc. but simply can't figure out the thoughts that made him write the letters after letters.
Paper thin arguments? Rather paper thick arguments, where often I am lost to find what the actual argument is.

Now you're gonna tell me Origi is a better player than Dembele?

In this forum ANY footballer on the planet is better than Dembele, so obviously not only Origi is way better but xyz as well, from the Bulgarian 3rd league.

if Pep got Alba at 27 like Valverde did, he would turn him into by far the best LB in the world. BY FAR. Like there wouldn't even be any competition.

I don't agree with this.
Alba is and has always been weaker as a true DEFENDER, but he mostly played in an attack oriented team, so his weaknesses in defensive duties were compensated by his good attacking capabilities.
Alba would have never become the best LB, simply because there are some who are much better as defenders.

 

[MTL_Barca]

2014 Tata 87 points
2015 Lucho 94 points
2016 Lucho 91 points
2017 Lucho 90 points
2018 Ernie 87 points
2019 Ernie 87 points

If you want to use points as an excuse, let's take this into the account:
1. Barca won a title early in EV's season, so later in a season we relaxed and played with 50%.
Also, for the first time ever, Messi was actually rested in final games of a season before CL matches, unlike in previous years.

For example, Messi's minutes in La Liga:
2015: 3375 minutes, 37 starts
2016: 2730 minutes, 31 starts (injured in autumn)
2017: 2833 minutes, 32 starts
2018: 2997 minutes, 32 starts
2019: 2710 minutes, 29 starts

Messi's injuries:
2019: =25 days
2018: =8 days
2017: =30 days
2016: =75 days
2015: =2 days

Under Lucho, Messi didn't play only when he was injured.
When he was fit, Messi was playing all the time for 90 minutes.
Under EV, for the first time ever, we have seen Messi resting and not playing some games even though he is fit.
Especially against Mickey Mouse opponents.

2018/19 season, final rounds:
Villareal 4:4: Suarez, Malcom, Coutinho attack
Huesca 0:0: Todibo, Murillo, Alena, Puig, Vague, Malcom, Boateng. In attack we had: Boateng-Dembele.
Celta 2:0: Todibo, Vermaelen, Wague, Alena, Puig... In attack: Dembele, Boateng, Malcom.
Or the 38th round vs Eibar 2:2, where we played Messi-Malcom-Roberto attack, lol.

You have 4 matches here.
If we would have played with a full team, we would have probably won at least 2 matches, and the most likely even 3 matches.
That means, current 87 points plus 6, 9 or 12 points.
So, if we had played with Messi and the best lineup all the time, like in previous seasons, EV would have won 93, 96 or 99 points.
So, if you want to play "point's game", EV is again not as shit as you guys claim.

I don't want to play the point game but since you're obsessed with stats and it's by far Valverdes best category i thought it's fair to start there. But see even there Mr. safe bet aka the league master can't easily outperform other average coaches. Since Pep we had Tata who was bad, Lucho who also wasn't that great and then Valverde who also is average at best compared to the best coaches. And all of them managed to get more or less similar league results. If you want to give Valverde some more imaginable points go ahead, it doesn't change anything. I thought of these games too but then again i can't remember every lineup Lucho used and it doesn't matter anyway because it wasn't about exact results. Like okay Valverde could've tryharded his way to a better season than Tata Martino, he really must be the league GOAT.

So again, how big is the risk? Like seriously you almost make it sound like Pep is current Barca coach and we want him gone just for fun to hire someone new. The reality is that Valverde is a plain average coach so another coach would need to be absolutely terrible to deliver far worse results.

And this is all just about league results = the only thing that's good with Valverde. Because in many other aspects there is almost zero risks. It would be very hard to make it look much worse with these players for example, less player development might also just be impossible and let's not even get started with the CL chokes.

 

[Messigician]

BBZ has a point, we won the league so early we could afford to drop points.

 

[Marshall D Teach]

I don't want to play the point game but since you're obsessed with stats and it's by far Valverdes best category i thought it's fair to start there. But see even there Mr. safe bet aka the league master can't easily outperform other average coaches. Since Pep we had Tata who was bad, Lucho who also wasn't that great and then Valverde who also is average at best compared to the best coaches. And all of them managed to get more or less similar league results. If you want to give Valverde some more imaginable points go ahead, it doesn't change anything. I thought of these games too but then again i can't remember every lineup Lucho used and it doesn't matter anyway because it wasn't about exact results. Like okay Valverde could've tryharded his way to a better season than Tata Martino, he really must be the league GOAT.

So again, how big is the risk? Like seriously you almost make it sound like Pep is current Barca coach and we want him gone just for fun to hire someone new. The reality is that Valverde is a plain average coach so another coach would need to be absolutely terrible to deliver far worse results.

And this is all just about league results = the only thing that's good with Valverde. Because in many other aspects there is almost zero risks. It would be very hard to make it look much worse with these players for example, less player development might also just be impossible and let's not even get started with the CL chokes.

Indeed. Every single coach we've had since Pep has been mediocre as hell, with the exception of Lucho (who's also not a tier 1 coach by any means) and they all got the same league results as Valverde, or better. We haven't had a problem with league results for ages.

Honestly, there's absolutely no risk in firing Valverde right now. Keeping him is a bigger risk if anything.

 

[serghei]

BBZ has a point, we won the league so early we could afford to drop points.

I agree. That is about the only part he is right with. Everything else in that post of his is off the mark.

Although that compensates with the many points we have lost during Tata's season due to blatant errors from referees. Overall this last La Liga season is one of our worst in the last decade, regarding goals scored, goals conceded and point totals. Up there with 13-14 for the worst league campaign since 2007-08. We cruised the league because our rivals were terrible, and we lost the league that season with Martino because Atletico and Real Madrid were very strong, both having played the CL final in 2014, not kicked out in the Last 16. So, you have a massive difference in terms of competition for the title. It's not comparable really. That AM is still by far the strongest version under Simeone, and Ancelotti's La Decima Madrid that trashed Bayern is still one of their best teams I've ever seen. Last year's versions were far from that level.

There is little doubt in my mind that Tata's 2013-14 Barcelona would've won the league by a clear margin had they competed with last year's versions of AM and Madrid.

 

[George_Costanza]

BBZ has a point, we won the league so early we could afford to drop points.

This is true if you take his statement out of context and not looking at the circumstances that lead us to win the league(s). It was a one-horse race league. ATM and Real both having horrible seasons. No way ATM of 2013/14 will lose the league to Valverde's team.

 

[soul24rage]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]
1. Your point on Tata

I didn’t mention the injuries that Tata had to face, but since you asked, the injuries EV had to face were not as bad as the ones Tata had to face.

The key players that were injured back in 13/14 season was Valdes with a back up GK like Pinto and out of form Messi who were both out for 1.5 months each. The two key players during the 17/18 league season were MATS (who saved a lot of points) and Messi. Imagine if in the 17/18 season both MATS and Messi were out for 1.5 months in different moments of the season and had Pinto instead of Cillessen. That was the situation Tata faced and even with that handicap, Tata still could have won the league if it wasn’t for the ref’s mistake in the ATM match. And it was Tata’s first season in Spain let alone Europe while EV knew La Liga which probably helped him a lot.

Umtiti and Vermaelen were not injured all the time. We were lucky that one of them stayed fit while the other was out injured and vice versa. We were also lucky that Alba didn’t get injured in the 18/19 season.

2. Your point on RM’s CL

I don’t see the point in talking about the CL as it’s a whole different type of competition. We know that RM is more suited to the CL and a bit more inconsistent in the league while it’s vice versa for us. As Sir Alex said, you need consistency throughout the whole season week in week out since every point matters while in the CL, you don’t have to consistency. You just need players in form in the right time and a manager that knows how to utilize his team to a high level.

16/17 RM is regarded as one of the great RM because one of the main reasons was that they had a great squad depth. You had players like James and Morata (RM’s 2nd highest scorer in 16/17) as your attacking option from the bench. After the 2017 transfer window, you look at the RM’s bench option in 17/18 league games and it is a downgrade (one of the reasons for RM’s poor 17/18 Liga with CR being the only reliable goalscorer). Then last year, RM lost a player like CR7 so it was easier for us.

3. Your point on Lucho

Yes I remember those 16/17 games as we relied a lot on Messi just like we relied on him for the past 2 years. I agree we played bad in Lucho’s last few months, but even by playing horribly, we were very close to winning 16/17 league against the a very good RM side (we got 90 points while they had 93). Plus, I remember RM had a few late goals in the 16/17 season as well. With EV, we are playing similar bad football for the past 2 years imo while playing against a worse RM.

Point wise, there is not much difference between the three managers.

13/14 - 87 pts Tata
14/15 - 94 pts Lucho
15/16 - 91 pts Lucho
16/17 - 90 pts Lucho
17/18 - 93 pts EV
18/19 - 87 pts EV

However, you look at the teams that those three had to face. Our competitors sucked in la liga for the past two years.

13/14 – ATM 90, RM 87
14/15 – RM 92, ATM 78
15/16 – RM 90, ATM 88
16/17 – RM 93, ATM 72
17/18 – ATM 79, RM 76
18/19 – ATM 76, RM 68

For me, EV and Tata are interchangeable and I think Lucho is better than EV. Even then Lucho wasn’t world class and I believe that Lucho left since he had no more to give to the squad. EV is at the same spectrum and this squad is in dire need of some fresh ideas (preferably more suited to our Barca style that knows how to utilize space, shape and player's position).

 

[Behrox]

I agree. That is about the only part he is right with. Everything else in that post of his is off the mark.

Although that compensates with the many points we have lost during Tata's season due to blatant errors from referees. Overall this last La Liga season is one of our worst in the last decade, regarding goals scored, goals conceded and point totals. Up there with 13-14 for the worst league campaign since 2007-08. We cruised the league because our rivals were terrible, and we lost the league that season with Martino because Atletico and Real Madrid were very strong, both having played the CL final in 2014, not kicked out in the Last 16. So, you have a massive difference in terms of competition for the title. It's not comparable really. That AM is still by far the strongest version under Simeone, and Ancelotti's La Decima Madrid that trashed Bayern is still one of their best teams I've ever seen. Last year's versions were far from that level.

There is little doubt in my mind that Tata's 2013-14 Barcelona would've won the league by a clear margin had they competed with last year's versions of AM and Madrid.

There's also the aspect of Tito's death that was a mental blow to the team, also all the shitstorm regarding the Neymar transfer. That's not even mentioning the witch hunt the Catalan media was conducting with Tata and the injury to the best version of Valdes we had seen in almost forever with aged Pinto as the fallback in the business end of the season. Valverde hasn't had to deal with any of this shit, nothing remotely close and he still only manages to get as many points as Tata.

If Tata had the shit show from Anfield or Rome, Sport and MD would have paraded his head on a pike with the socios.

 

[clemente]

That pass to Fati is what you call magic, I'm starting to believe this guy can actually reach KDB level.

 

[CatalinR10]

Nice goal from our Winger.

 

[Jakabor]

Monster of a player.

 

[ThwiX]

Fantastic game today.

 

[Devils]

Stunning player.

One of the best I have ever seen.

 

[CatalinR10]

Great game

 

[Raketa10]

Gret game!