Frenkie de Jong

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Birdy

Senior Member
So, who decides this?
And FDJ is more or less a huge part of this current platform, we got him his NT coach, we got him his former assistant-coach, we used the system that suits him, players like Puig found himself with no position in this formation thanks to that.

He doesn't get benched regardless his performance either (lead the squads in minutes this year)

Never said you can't judge him. And these are valid criticisms above.

But,
But saying that this is a non-functioning platform, and attribute this to player X or Y or Z, then say oh I can't judge player A or B because we have no platform is a hypocritical to say at best.

The prime reason - after 4 months of Koeman - why the 4-2-3-1 hasn't reached its best is Messi.
Why? Because his 'free' role means that
i) we defend always with 10
ii) we cram more people than what we should centrally
iii) the ball has to go always through him, any fluidity and movement from the front 4 is destroyed
iv) Even if we disregard all the above, he sucks big time in creating individual moments of brilliance to overcome all that.

And guess what. Even with any other formation the above structural problems will never be cured. Only when Messi leaves these problems will be alleviated.

Frenkie shall play better? Sure Does he creates any similar structural problem? Hell no! He keeps his position, he runs, he does base layer things OK.
You can say that because of him we don't play 4-3-3 (although I have said elsewhere this is not entirely true), but there are levels between the two criticisms

PS: I talk only about the system and the formation, not the overall state of the club (that's another issue).
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Never said you can't judge him. And these are valid criticisms above.

But,


The prime reason - after 4 months of Koeman - why the 4-2-3-1 hasn't reached its best is Messi.
Why? Because his 'free' role means that
i) we defend always with 10
ii) we cram more people than what we should centrally
iii) the ball has to go always through him, any fluidity and movement from the front 4 is destroyed
iv) Even if we disregard all the above, he sucks big time in creating individual moments of brilliance to overcome all that.

And guess what. Even with any other formation the above structural problems will never be cured. Only when Messi leaves these problems will be alleviated.

Frenkie shall play better? Sure Does he creates any similar structural problem? Hell no! He keeps his position, he runs, he does base layer things OK.
You can say that because of him we don't play 4-3-3 (although I have said elsewhere this is not entirely true), but there are levels between the two criticisms

PS: I talk only about the system and the formation, not the overall state of the club (that's another issue).

Look man, my intentions isn't to make this about Messi. My point is that we can judge players under those circumstances, you make valid points even if I don't agree with all of them.

My point with FDJ was never that he destroys the system, but it is that huge reason we are using this system in first place is him. He is rarely benched, and other good players actually doesn't benefit of this (Puig is prime example, he is perfect for 433, and in 4231 his best fit is being one of the double pivot who can play more vertical, which is basically FDJ)
He is more or less treated like our 2nd franchise player after Messi, replacing Suarez in that.

Not holding him accountable for his performance is for me the recipe of creating a new amigo. Especially for the guy who was mocking his coach in social media after he just arrived. When you do everything to get the best out of him, and he is still heavily underperforming then the honeymoon is over. He should be judged like every other player.


And again, that isn't to say that FDJ isn't Barca quality, I think he is. But so far he has yet to show me he has a Barca star quality. handful of games in Ajax doesn't change that
 

ItachiXXX

New member
And as if we didn't have enough problems already, Bayern are trying to take advantage of the situation and steal Frenkie from us:


barcacentre
@barcacentre
?
Dec 9
Bayern Munich, who already loved Frenkie de Jong in 2019, are once again interested in signing the Dutch midfielder. Bar?a are aware that Ali Dursun, De Jong's agent, is in contract with the German side. [md]

Barca Board trying hard to sell a narrative that their pet project is not a bust. They hired his NT manager and change the formation for him and still end up as a BUST :lol:
If this overrated Dutch can't outshine players tier below him, he needs to GO
 

Givenchy

Senior Member
Barca Board trying hard to sell a narrative that their pet project is not a bust. They hired his NT manager and change the formation for him and still end up as a BUST :lol:
If this overrated Dutch can't outshine players tier below him, he needs to GO

i think its more of a case of 'right player, wrong time' with Frenkie. he should of joined a team with a clear idea going forward, not this mess of a club. we seem to throw money around on players we have no idea what position to play them in

players don't develop at Barca anymore, the club is toxic
 

bastardo

Member
Maybe De jong is a bust, maybe he isn't. At some point, we gotta start asking ourselves why have so many players that we bought pretty much regressed and never improved?
 

Arnaez

Member
Just stick him at DM and get Puig in, see what happens. Hell Yaya Toure was a serviceable DM.
 
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ItachiXXX

New member
i think its more of a case of 'right player, wrong time' with Frenkie. he should of joined a team with a clear idea going forward, not this mess of a club. we seem to throw money around on players we have no idea what position to play them in

players don't develop at Barca anymore, the club is toxic

Is this excuse applicable to other players or it's only for the forum de anigos favorites. If this overrated Dutch can't out perform mediocre teammates that he has, it's a BUST
 

serghei

Senior Member
So, how do you blame Messi then? I mean by that logic then may be Messi himself is bad because of the system?

No, because Messi is the system. Can't believe you're asking this tbh. His "free role" with no responsibilities is famous. Him stepping on other players' positions, and walking off the ball, or not doing pressing when everyone else around him does it is obvious as well.

The system badly affects nearly everyone (especially faster, younger players who would benefit from more intensity). The exceptions are the players with a lot of power in the locker-room who are basically protected. Messi first, used to be Suarez too, and Alba (only one that might be fit enough to be kept), Busi. See the pattern. Older players wanting a slower style with less movement because their legs have gone. These guys won't be able to play in a modern team with a high work-rate, pressing, constant running over 90 mins.

How do you select the players to keep when you are rebuilding and in bad shape?

You fix the collective problems in the team and then you will know that the ones that play like shit aren't good enough. When you have chaos in the team you never know to which degree it's the player's fault or the crap environment in the team.

I've said it before. It's like "The fruit of the poisonous tree" in US Law. If one essential aspect is corrupted or obtained illegally, then it casts doubt on everything that depends on that. It's the same when rating players. If key aspects in the team are corrupted, badly planned, chaotic, this casts doubt on the player's ability to affirm themselves and prove their quality.

Unless you believe that top players will play great on their own regardless of everything else. That their quality should be enough to trump all the shit in the team. I don't. The team and the structure for me are more important than everything a player can do to affect the team on an individual level.

I mean you will say Messi is a problem after one bad season (actually less) and think FDJ is top player when he is one season wonder?
Are we going to say every team that is bad, we can't judge their own players?

Don't know why you insist on Messi. Messi's not just any player that is going through a bad form. He is a dictator and someone that wants the team to be built around him even when he's clearly too old and too past it for that. An element that is dragging the club down in terms of the system. You can't press because of him, you can have proper movement because of him, you can't have a quick transition system because of his walking. And so on. These have nothing to do with his poor form. They have to do with age and his lack of discipline (dictatorial attitude). The system at the club is to pass it to Messi all the time. The main reason for this happens is Messi.

I am sorry, but I don't see any sense in that.
We were awful in 2000-2003, even worse than current team but players like Puyol and Xavi clearly showed their worth during that time.

I'm not surprised. I think you said you don't believe in Amigo theory, even though Zubizaretta and Quique Setien (two sources from within the club in super high positions) validated it. Zubizarreta even since 2013-14. Imagine how bad his attitude and discipline must be in 2020.

What did Setien say? If the club accepted this boy's behavior all this time, who am I to change him? Basically given up and acknowledged that Messi runs the show and the team. Even a ballsy guy like Koeman has to say dumb things like "Messi gets more tired if he is rested in games" to hide the fact that he has to play Messi nearly all the time or shit will hit the fan.

To me, this is black and white stuff now. The Amigo culture at the club is obvious. High ranked sources confirmed, we all saw it even fucking live on Celta when Messi walks away when the staff wants to give him some directions. As if he knows better than the coaches.

I don't apply pressure fast on players, football is a quick game with huge turn over. Players usually have a peak for 5 years or so, many players even less.
2 years are huge thing in a player career, and when you don't show me something that proves you are worth it, when you aren't the standout among your teammates. Then you aren't worth beneficial treatment.

And yes, coaches are essential, but if you are a player that needs only the top of the crop to shine then that is a problem, because no team can have this type of coach for long time. That is very rare

Players need a working system and a plan. Not a team where the older players run things and Messi basically has unlimited powers to do what he wants.

Get rid of problematic amigos in the team that impede change, sign a manager with some ideas, bring in a board that doesn't see signings are marketing ploys. Then I will join you in being more ruthless with rating players.

Until then, I am more tempted to believe everyone plays worse for Barca than for other teams because we are a fucked up club. And when I see some Presidential candidates want to build a new team on 34 years old Messi, can't say I'm surprised. It shows a huge lack of any perspective and planning. Just words to win votes by pandering to a gullible audience.

We could sell all the players for all I care. Nothing will change until the mentality will change.

Wonder how much time will pass until Dest will be dumb and overrated too, looking at how crap things look with our so-called right-wing attackers who leave him hanging all the time, and never look to get into any combination with him.
 
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Neeraj

Senior Member
I was just re-watching some clips of his from Ajax. While I understand some of the criticism, I really do think he is a top player. Once we sort our system (or lack thereof), I am hoping to see the best of him.

Also, his strength at Ajax, aside from driving with the ball from deep was quick transitions, releasing balls to runners and overlaps, neat 1-2's to get the ball to the final third and then of course, great physical attributes to be positioned well to receive the ball and mitigate pressure when needed.

At Barca, he is not effective going forward since we play a static 'thread the needle' game, where all 21 players are basically compressed in the opponents half and we need inch perfect precision balls, which very few people in this team, and the world, are good at. That's just not his game.

The good thing is, we can't complain of changing our system for one player because our current system (if I can even call it a system) is garbage anyway. We need to change things up completely irrespective, and I think when we eventually get to making that change, his quality will show up.
 
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