Frenkie de Jong
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i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
Ugh.
The haters say he should be a CB, I do not see him in matches. This and that. Like Serghei said, he never has nor should he be an interior/attacking midfielder and the fact that he has found some sort of way to adapt to it and produce speaks to his overall quality.
It has been evident to me since he was at Ajax that he is the perfect Busi replacement and the coach who finally sacks up and lets him finally have that role will do us a world of good. I think it is a joke to try and claim he is anonymous and does not do anything when he is an organizer and a deep-lying playmaker primarily. Of course he might not look great when we have no real movement off the ball and players looking to get in behind. He often has to pass sideways and safe because he is looking at players who are just standing around, watching him.
On the occasion someone does make a good run, he will pick them out with a great pass and he has already had a couple assists this season from some beautiful through passes. It is all about putting him in the right system and position to shine in and if we do not get our act together quickly, he will go to another club where he can find that.
Every time he plays DM, our overall tempo is better. Tbf, I think he just needs to be more consistent in controlling matches but he has shown it at times this season and with more help in midfield, I think he can have an easier time dominating.
The haters say he should be a CB, I do not see him in matches. This and that. Like Serghei said, he never has nor should he be an interior/attacking midfielder and the fact that he has found some sort of way to adapt to it and produce speaks to his overall quality.
It has been evident to me since he was at Ajax that he is the perfect Busi replacement and the coach who finally sacks up and lets him finally have that role will do us a world of good. I think it is a joke to try and claim he is anonymous and does not do anything when he is an organizer and a deep-lying playmaker primarily. Of course he might not look great when we have no real movement off the ball and players looking to get in behind. He often has to pass sideways and safe because he is looking at players who are just standing around, watching him.
On the occasion someone does make a good run, he will pick them out with a great pass and he has already had a couple assists this season from some beautiful through passes. It is all about putting him in the right system and position to shine in and if we do not get our act together quickly, he will go to another club where he can find that.
Every time he plays DM, our overall tempo is better. Tbf, I think he just needs to be more consistent in controlling matches but he has shown it at times this season and with more help in midfield, I think he can have an easier time dominating.
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serghei
Senior Member
Yea, and plus, we have known since the Yaya Toure days that just because you are a DM doesn't mean you can't go up and claim space when the opportunity comes, especially if you are confident in your ability and don't overdo it. You just need to have a plan and implement that in a good way. Casemiro at Madrid goes up a lot. Man scored vital goals for Madrid. Even in a CL final. But the thing is he does that while finishing his action, either with a pass or with a shot. So, his incursions are very well-defined and serve a purpose. Right now, De Jong goes up non-stop, with very little clear purpose. No wonder PSG owned us in midfield since De Jong is wandering up high on the pitch instead of helping us to control it. Koeman has the midfield dynamics wrong. He has slow players on the ball, and the really skilled players who could combine in speed and progress the ball well are cramped up top doing volume runs.
Btw, Toure was a DM for us, and he was actually superior to De Jong in terms of ability on the ball, shooting, scoring, dribbling.
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Bobo32
Senior Member
Barcelona are in a shambles, it's natural for us to find different solutions
I am not a De Jong hater, I was probably one of those most happy when he arrived. But after a while, it became obvious to me he wasn't the midfielder Barcelona need.
He has been playing DMC quite a few times, sometimes from the start, often after changes, he did that today for example, when Cadiz equalized.
I think he is even less fit to play as a dmc than as an interior. Way too mobile, bad positionally.
I don't understand this thing about Busquets being slow at all. Sure De Jong is a faster sprinter, but the position is not about running fast.
No player can connect the DCs with the MCs as well as Busquets, often playing one touch, otherwise waiting just enough for the press to be beaten. His timing there is his main quality.
De Jong goes too deep to get the ball, gets it in DC position, looks up, doesn't see anyone, dribble for a bit, pass it back to the DC, jogs away etc. Very unelegant in his solutions.
He is great under pressure, his calmness is perfect then. He can also take advantage with his dribbling when a space appears, but it seldom does in the central corridor...
I am not a De Jong hater, I was probably one of those most happy when he arrived. But after a while, it became obvious to me he wasn't the midfielder Barcelona need.
He has been playing DMC quite a few times, sometimes from the start, often after changes, he did that today for example, when Cadiz equalized.
I think he is even less fit to play as a dmc than as an interior. Way too mobile, bad positionally.
I don't understand this thing about Busquets being slow at all. Sure De Jong is a faster sprinter, but the position is not about running fast.
No player can connect the DCs with the MCs as well as Busquets, often playing one touch, otherwise waiting just enough for the press to be beaten. His timing there is his main quality.
De Jong goes too deep to get the ball, gets it in DC position, looks up, doesn't see anyone, dribble for a bit, pass it back to the DC, jogs away etc. Very unelegant in his solutions.
He is great under pressure, his calmness is perfect then. He can also take advantage with his dribbling when a space appears, but it seldom does in the central corridor...
Bobo32
Senior Member
I didn't even know about De Jong then...
You mean what I write about Busquets?
Or you mean "football has evolved" and a player like Busquets can't work anymore?
Joan
Well-known member
I don't think De Jong did that well as a pivot. Think he was often poorly positioned and didn't defend well enough. His recent actions in the final third have improved his image a lot. People weren't that happy with him at the beginning of the season.
@Bobo, pace might not be crucial for the role, but it sure helps. Especially in counters.
@Bobo, pace might not be crucial for the role, but it sure helps. Especially in counters.
BarcaOG
Banned
yeah, no. hes great. the rest of the team sucks
Sailor Mars
Well-known member
Yeah, he is a great player to have on the team.
He might not live up to some of the lofty expectations that were placed on him with fans expecting him to be a prime Xavi or Modric calibre player.
He is not an entire system, but he is a good piece of the puzzle. How well he plays is also going to depend on other pieces around him
He might not live up to some of the lofty expectations that were placed on him with fans expecting him to be a prime Xavi or Modric calibre player.
He is not an entire system, but he is a good piece of the puzzle. How well he plays is also going to depend on other pieces around him
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I remember an article in one sportspaper 3 years ago: Frenkie, a guy who will save football.
This is a weird era.
Everyone can write a blog, have a popular twitter, Instagram or Youtube account.
It will take years until we will reset our brains, adjust and learn to be very cautious about hype in modern era.
There is just too much coverage of every game, every pass, every move.
One goal, pass or dribble goes viral and is posted everywhere.
Youtube and owners of social media creators want to stay hot and "in" so they easily repost goals and hot topics and this why you easily get this effect where everyone is too hyped.
And it is hard for our brains (as readers) not to get influenced by all these posts on internet and social media and not to fall for the hype.
Remember how we were analyzing Arthur's games, passes and moves before he came to Barca.
Or how everyone watched Ajax two years ago.
About Frenkie, he had only one year of a senior football before he signed for us.
We all know that some guys sometimes have one out of this world season and never repeat it.
Or he could be a system player who looked good in a well oiled machine.
I am not saying that he is bad.
But he is miles away from his hype.
His 2 seasons at Barca for me could be described like: a classical workhorse with some silky passes.
Till now, his main virtue is insane stamina, running around and helping like crazy.
He is very questionable positionally in defending.
And apart from goals, his creative input in the attacking 3rd is meh.
About his future at Barca, I am sceptical.
1. He can't play as a CM in 433 because he is miles behind Xavi, Iniesta, Deco in terms of creativity.
With him as a CM, we will never be "that type of Barca" which people want to see
2. He can't play as a lone pivot because he is miles behind positionally than Davids, Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel, Marquez.
He is not THAT physical and wanders around too much for both Rijkaard's and Pep's 433.
3. What is left? He could only play in a double pivot in 4231, but that style is new for us and doesn't fit some other players
All in all, I won't be too surprised if he'll be sold for 100m and sacrificed to cover our debts or to buy more important players, like Haaland.
This is a weird era.
Everyone can write a blog, have a popular twitter, Instagram or Youtube account.
It will take years until we will reset our brains, adjust and learn to be very cautious about hype in modern era.
There is just too much coverage of every game, every pass, every move.
One goal, pass or dribble goes viral and is posted everywhere.
Youtube and owners of social media creators want to stay hot and "in" so they easily repost goals and hot topics and this why you easily get this effect where everyone is too hyped.
And it is hard for our brains (as readers) not to get influenced by all these posts on internet and social media and not to fall for the hype.
Remember how we were analyzing Arthur's games, passes and moves before he came to Barca.
Or how everyone watched Ajax two years ago.
About Frenkie, he had only one year of a senior football before he signed for us.
We all know that some guys sometimes have one out of this world season and never repeat it.
Or he could be a system player who looked good in a well oiled machine.
I am not saying that he is bad.
But he is miles away from his hype.
His 2 seasons at Barca for me could be described like: a classical workhorse with some silky passes.
Till now, his main virtue is insane stamina, running around and helping like crazy.
He is very questionable positionally in defending.
And apart from goals, his creative input in the attacking 3rd is meh.
About his future at Barca, I am sceptical.
1. He can't play as a CM in 433 because he is miles behind Xavi, Iniesta, Deco in terms of creativity.
With him as a CM, we will never be "that type of Barca" which people want to see
2. He can't play as a lone pivot because he is miles behind positionally than Davids, Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel, Marquez.
He is not THAT physical and wanders around too much for both Rijkaard's and Pep's 433.
3. What is left? He could only play in a double pivot in 4231, but that style is new for us and doesn't fit some other players
All in all, I won't be too surprised if he'll be sold for 100m and sacrificed to cover our debts or to buy more important players, like Haaland.
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malvolio
Senior Member
people have short memory it seems. just a couple of months ago we were screaming that he is no DM and also is no good in a double pivot. now we are going back again?
not to mention CB, where he is a disaster.
i for one would be ok if in the end he is a second rakitic. a hard working midfielder, who pops in with a goal or two.
main problem is we still need two midfielders.
They hate Busques or any Barca CBs so much that they want De Jong replace them.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
First off, agree with you for the most part about hype these days. People need to be a little more patient with players but these days, it is not about being right but first and that fuels a lot of these hasty projections. But I find it a little funny you highlight that and then end your post with Haaland, who despite his clear talent, is another example of “the streets” next chosen-one and I wonder if he can genuinely deliver on the hype he has.
With Frenkie, I don't share your sentiment of him being "miles" away from the standard, either offensively and defensively. Compared to the interiors you named, I think in terms of ball control and dribbling, he is right there with all of them. Iniesta was a better dribbler but my point here is that from a pure technical standpoint, I differ from you. I think what is valid when looking at Frenkie's suitability to the interior role is the mental side of things and his natural tendencies on the pitch. He lacks the improvisational skills in the final third that the interiors you named had. Pedri, for example, has a better understanding of following his pass, filling in the small gaps in tight spaces to combine and building off of the 1-2 in the final third than Frenkie does and that is why he has looked so good in the CAM/interior role, depending on what Koeman is playing.
As a pivot, I would say the most valid criticism of him there is positioning. There is a lot to unpack though in why this is the case however, and placing the blame solely on Frenkie or it being an indication of his capacity fails to take into account the entire picture here. Strictly looking at Frenkie first, specifically I would say the only things he needs to improve on is his man-marking and largely positioning during offensive transitions: when to fill the wingback and drift wide vs. remaining central and intercepting the opposition's first outlet pass off a transition. The latter in particular is what made Busi so great when he was in his prime and vital to our style, he would help us keep teams pinned in their half and have to defend wave after wave after wave of attacks. Outside of those specifics and some small adjustments in his positioning in the build-up phase, he has everything else we need to excel as a lone pivot. It would also help if we had a defense that could actually do its job and support him a bit but that is another discussion.
That being said, when you zoom out a bit and look at the whole picture, there are key factors you cannot ignore that demonstrate this really isn't on Frenkie. You guys need to keep in mind how young he was when we signed him and how young he still is. I think a good player to compare him to right now in terms the level of expectation he had and how he has been utilized so far is Cesc. Frenkie has played under 3 different coaches now in the spell of what, a year and half? All with fairly different approaches not only in terms of how they set their teams up but crucially in how they utilized him. Fucking EV had him playing at LM in the 4-4-2 FFS while Senilen had absolutely NO clue what to do with him. It is has only been under Koeman that he has had a half-decent coach who has actually developed him a bit and helped him improve his game. The only problem with Koeman however is that he is trying to force him into this weird box-to-box role and develop his offensive abilities instead of helping him get familiarity in the pivot, with Busi's age clearly showing with each passing game. Using Frenkie like this just means we signed the wrong Dutch Ajax midfielder: it should have been Donny van de Beek and again, this is why I point to Cesc. It was the same problem with Pep trying to shoehorn him into that weird quasi-false 9/CAM position just so he could play with Xavi and Iniesta when he was signed to be the long-term successor to Xavi.
This point really highlights what I am getting at. If Frenkie had an extended run of games playing as the sole pivot, in a defined role with good complementary interiors, he would shine. Not only that, but I believe that if he had a good coach that could actually develop and improve players and help him start to improve on the things I highlighted earlier, I think he has the potential to be a more complete pivot than even Busi if all things went right. The fact that this has hardly happened since he has been here is our fault as a club's, not his.
Putting him at DM next to a washed up Pjanic, a tired Pedri with the offensive juggernaut that is Martin Braithwaite leading the line and expecting the Frenkie who sat down Modric to show up is just kinda silly to me. Have to create the conditions for success, yo.
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Bobo32
Senior Member
This is the core of it all. It might be true for Frenkie as a DM; I am sceptical about it but you may believe it. It is the same with Busquets in the same role, and with any role in any team.
When Frenkie played there, I've seen alot of things I don't like, and very few thing I liked, compared to Busquets.
If Barcelona are to play in a way that the DMC needs to run like crazy to stop counters every now and then, he'll probably do that slightly better than Busquets...
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