Frenkie de Jong

[DonAK]

And there is a difference between an established star pushing where he wants to go, and a player getting his 1st big check with management like Ajax, they aren't really comparable but whatever

I think this makes more sense for players coming from South America or from let's put it this way, a troubling background.

Same doesn't apply for players in Europe, certainly not those that are playing in the major European competitions and are European and comes from a well established system and country like the Netherlands.

 

[Kingkongkong]

I see in other threads comments like xx player sucks, we need De Jong-Arthur midfield, lol.

So, for a start, on Red Cafe and City's forum, people see De Jong as a defensive midfielder (a new Busquets or Fernardinho).
Yet, here on our forum, people see him as a classic central midfielder.
That is imo a problem no1

The 2nd thing, I have already wrote, since Rijkaard, so, that is since 2003', we used to play with:
1. central midfielder who is more attacking minded and a creator
2. a classic central midfielder
3. a defensive midfielder

During Rijkaard:
Attacking midfielder/a creator: was Deco
A classic central midfielder: was Xavi
A defensive midfielder: was Edmilson, Motta, Marquez

During Pep:
Attacking midfielder: was Iniesta
A classic central midfielder: was Xavi
A defensive midfielder: was Busquets

In 2003/04 season when Rijkaard came, I remember one interview and he said: Ronaldinho is our brain and a creator.
But the opponents have figured this out and he is often man marked by 2-3 players and then we have no one to create and we suffer.
This is why I have decided to buy ANOTHER creator who will play on an opposite side of a pitch (on a right side).
So, if Ronaldinho will be man marked by 2-3 players (on a left side), then our other creator (Deco) will have a free space on a right side and he will be able to do whatever he wants.
Yet, if the opponents will man mark BOTH Ronaldinho and Deco with 2 players, then Etoo will be free in the center.

Anyway, since then we are playing 433 with 2 creators (Ronaldinho and Deco). Rijkaard didn't even consider Xavi as a creator in that attacking sense...

So, now let's go back to these crazy ideas with De Jong-Arthur midfield.
Do you guys see a problem?
= they are too similar.

Busquets=is Busquets, a pivot
Arthur is more a mixture of Busquets and Xavi than a true Xavi (since he is lacking in creation and he is dropping too deep to get the ball).
And De Jong is AGAIN more like a mixture of Koeman, Busquets and Xavi who is dropping deep to get the ball.
So, basically, in Busi-De Jong-Arthur, we would have 3 too similar players who are all more suited for playing a pivot or a double pivot.
Not to mention that NONE of them is a creator in Rijkaard's sense (like Ronaldinho and Deco, or later Iniesta).
So, even though De Jong and Arthur have some shiny moves and passes, that duo combined would probably be insanely sterile in attacking sense for Barca's level.

So, if you want De Jong, you will need to look at other options:
1. De Jong as a pivot, Arthur as a CM, and a new guy as a 3rd guy, someone like Coutinho, Alena, Rafinha and similar.
2. Arthur as a pivot, De Jong as a CM, a 3rd creator on a field.
3. Busi as a pivot, only one out of De Jong/Arthur on a field, plus a 3rd guy, a creator.

So, we solved 2 problems:
1. De Jong is a CM only on Barca's forum
2. De Jong and Arthur will have problems playing together as 2 Cms.
The 3rd problem is: let's call it defending&muscles&physical presence.

I have said before, the only moment EVER in a history when we were able to win without muscles was during Pep.
Since we will never have prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves, let's forget that option.
In other years, like 2006 or 2015, our midfield had 1 or 2 stronger players (2006: Edmilson, Van Bommel and even Motta) (2015: Rakitic).
Now, let's go back to Busi-De Jong-Arthur, lol, wtf is that?
De Jong is tall, but skinny and light as fuck. Not much stronger than Denis/Coutinho.
Arthur has muscles but he is short and not too fast.
All in all, we don't have any player in a mold of Van Bommel, Edmilson, Motta, Rakitic or Real's CL winning factor: Casemiro.
De Jong-Arthur is an equivalent to Modric-Isco-Kroos midfield. And that midfield lacked something, right? Some muscles, physical presence, some thuggish behavior, right?

And voila, here is the answer WHY our board is also looking at Rabiot.
Because he is a different profile than what we currently have.
If we want to look at a future, let's see what type of midfielders we will have:
1. De Jong: technical, tall, but physically soft and weak
2. Arthur: technical, not too tall, not exactly AS physical as Casemiro and similar players
3. Coutinho: technical, slow, short, very light
4. Alena: technical, light
5. Puig: technical, extremely short. Not a new Casemiro either

So, do you guys see ANY players here of Rakitic's or Casemiro's physical type here?
All of our future midfielders are more of the same: light, technical and majority are very short.

So, for the future, we will need De Jong and 2 more players:
1. De Jong
2. at least one physical midfielder
3. and one true creator, an attacking midfielder

All in all, about De Jong, I wouldn't be surprised that the board sees him as a long term Busi's replacement (the same as fans from other forums).
If that is true, then our future would make more sense with:
De Jong: a pivot/central midfielder
Arthur: a controller
3rd guy: a creator, an attacking midfielder
Rabiot: a sub BOTH for De Jong's pivot position, and an option/rotation with Arthur for a CM with muscles (Rakitic's type), when needed

Anyway, this story is imo way more complicated than: we will play De Jong-Arthur (we probably won't).
And why do we need Rabiot?

I belive Frenkie can be mouldede into a more offensive role, and i dont understand your argument about phsyciality, a team like, Lets sat City does pretty well in Premier league, i dont see that much phsycilaity or height in Gundogan, Fernandinho, David Silva

 

[Joan]

I belive Frenkie can be mouldede into a more offensive role, and i dont understand your argument about phsyciality, a team like, Lets sat City does pretty well in Premier league, i dont see that much phsycilaity or height in Gundogan, Fernandinho, David Silva

You don't see physicality in Fernandinho? Anyways, City's doing well in the league. Just like Barcelona. CL is another discussion.

 

[BBZ8800]

I belive Frenkie can be mouldede into a more offensive role, and i dont understand your argument about phsyciality, a team like, Lets sat City does pretty well in Premier league, i dont see that much phsycilaity or height in Gundogan, Fernandinho, David Silva

You don't see physicality in Fernandinho? Anyways, City's doing well in the league. Just like Barcelona. CL is another discussion.

As Joan said: you need to make a distinction between La Liga and a Champions league.

As Barca has proven in the last years:
1. you can win La liga with playing light midfield (Xaxi, Iniesta, Busi)
2. you can win La liga with playing attacking football (Pep)
3. you can win La liga with workhorses (Rakitic, Paulinho plus normal players Iniesta and Busi)
4. you can win La liga with turtles, without any pace (Rakitic, Iniesta, Paulinho, Busi last season)
5. or you can win La liga due to pacey wingers like Ronaldinho, young Messi, Guily, Henry, Neymar etc.
6. you can win La liga and break records with a horrible, ugly, defensive football

So, yes, we can win La liga with any of these:
1. De Jong-Arthur midfield duo
2. and probably even with Rakitic-Paulinho/Roberto midfield duo

In La liga, 17 out of 20 Barca's opponents are way weaker than Barca, and we can win in 100s of different combinations:
Light players
Strong players
Fast players
Turtles
Young players
Grannies
Technical Barca's DNA players
Paulinho-Rakitic midfield

But, in a CL, that is a different story.
Barca is outplayed on majority of occasions in a CL due to physicality.
Mighty Pep and his City are doing well in EPL against smaller teams (the same as Barca), yet in a CL (KNOCKOUT MATCHES, not in a Mickey Mouse group stage) he is losing year after year in the same fashion, against same type of teams.
Who run faster than his guys.
Who run more than his guys.
Who are faster, stronger, taller in every 1 vs 1 duel.
Who are more motivated and playing at 120%.

In that sense: Frenkie CAN play for us.
In La Liga we can play crazy duos like De Jong-Arthur, De Jong-Coutinho and similar (especially at Camp Nou).
On the other hand, try to play De Jong-Arthur-Busi or De Jong-Coutinho against AM, Bayern, Liverpool in a CL.
I surely won't even turn on a TV to watch that much. I had enough of porn already, lol.

So, when we are discussing players, I thought that we are discussing players for a CL level.
For La liga level, you can win with any combination: Rakitic, Paulinho, Rabiot, de Jong, Arthur, Malcom, Dembele, even Paco.

 

[defyqa]

^ For a mathematician, I thought it would be clear that there are 19 opponents in a 20 team league.

 

[Alik]

Arthur lacks physicality?

 

[Gnidrologist]

He's not tall therefore lacks physicality doncha know.

 

[BBZ8800]

Arthur lacks physicality?

He's not tall therefore lacks physicality doncha know.

You know what I mean.
Arthur is decent in terms of physique, COMPARED to Xavi, Iniesta, Coutinho, Samper.
He is good in strength. But not tall and not too fast.
Busi is tall, but quite weak in strength and slow.

So, since we are talking about Champions league and not about matches vs Getafe, Levante and Las Palmas, my point is that when you look at the whole team, a midfield consisted of:
Busi-De Jong-Arthur or De Jong-Arthur-Coutinho is quite poor in terms of physique against Atletico, English teams, Juve and similar.
Try to win 1 vs 1 defensive duels which require some strength, bullying, pushing.
Try to win an areal duel.
Try NOT to concede after corners like in key CL defeats like against Chelsea 2005 or Roma 2018 where the opponents have 7-8 guys strong in the air, while we play with Arthurs, Coutinhos and similar.

When you are playing against Getafe and winning 4:0, then a conceded goal after corner is NOT a big deal since your technical players with a weaker physique will score 3-4 goals either way against a technically weak opponent.
In a CL, where big boys have BOTH technique and physique, in 0:0 matches, conceding a goal in a naive way after corners IS a big deal and will usually be deadly.

Remember one more time, in the last few years, big matches in quarters, semis and finals are usually tight 50:50 matches.
Real Madrid was winning CL titles with numerous of goals from penalties, free kicks and especially corners.
France has just won a world cup with numerous decisive goals after free kicks, headers after free kicks, headers after corners and penalties.

As I have said above, you need to distinguish playing in La liga and in a CL.
In La liga, De Jong's or Arthur's not so perfect physique is not a problem over 38 rounds.
In a CL against Juve, Roma, Chelsea, Liverpool, Atletico, Bayern, in those 50:50 matches, every cross, every areal duel, every corner, every free kick at the edge of a box is usually deadly.

The problem is (imo) that for years, Barca has built our team around technique and our gameplan was to dominate against CL opponents with our technique and this is why we have neglected physique.
But lately, teams like Barca, Atletico, Liverpool, Juve have come close to our level of technique (they aren't much worse), yet their physique is way better than ours.
And their areal game.

In numbers (this is just my estimation to show you my point):
10-20 years ago:
Barca's technique 10/10
Barca's physique 5/10

CL opponent's technique 7,5/10
CL opponent's physique 7/10

Today:
Barca's technique 10/10
Barca's physique 6/10

BUT, a problem is TODAY:
Barca's opponent's technique 9/10
Barca's opponent's physique 10/10

So, other big teams have closed the gap with us in terms in technique.
They came close to us.
On the other hand, other teams improved a lot in terms of stamina, pace, strength, muscles, areal game, and even height.
While we, more or less, stayed on the same place as in 1999' or 2006'.

This is why we are winning in La Liga:
Our technique is 10/10
Getafe's technique is 5/10.

And then, we can win easily INSPITE of a poor physique.
But when we face AM, Juve, Liverpool, their technique is 9/10 and physique 10/10.
They neutralize Messi, our creation is dead.
That means that our technique is useless without Messi.
And what is left then? Our physique 6/10 vs their physique 10/10 and they are usually either faster and/or stronger than us all over the field plus they are killing us on crosses, free kicks and corners.

In that sense, for a CL level, my general footballing idea is that Barca will need to evolve physically.
Some of you will repeat forever: EV this, EV that...
Imagine if YOU were a coach.
And if we are playing against Roma AGAIN next season.
If you field: Busi-Arthur-De Jong, or De Jong-Arthur-Coutinho, with Alba-Umtiti-Pique-Semedo.
That means only 2-3 players who can jump while defending corners: Umtiti, Pique and somewhat De Jong (if his opponent is not a 190cm defender from Roma twice of his size).
Now, imagine if the result is still 0:0 in the 70th minute and Roma is having a corner after corner.
We will just concede a goal this or that way, it is inevitable.
That part of our game is very weak for a CL level.

Now, sit and enjoy this video one more time and COUNT how many crosses in the box and corners Roma had:
And tell me: HOW will you prevent that? (Please don't reply: we will keep the ball till death with De Jong-Arthur, lol):
Roma's height at crosses and corners:
Fazio 195cm
Dzeko 193cm
Manolas 189cm
Strootman 187cm
Kolarov 187cm
Schick 186cm
Juan 185cm
De Rossi 184cm
And you are planning to defend against them with Arthur, Coutinho and similar? Good luck with that.

Btw, Pep's teams are losing in a same fashion in a CL (both Bayern and City).
So, you can't blame only EV for that.

 

[Laplacian]

FDJ possesses technique, intelligence, creativity, pace, height, and strength. He has the potential to be a great midfielder.

 

[Kingkongkong]

If we do not get him, and we are looking for a new workhorse i hope it will be his teammate Donny Van den beek, has played very good When i have seen him and he is same age as Frenkie.

 

[HighContrast]

If we do not get him, and we are looking for a new workhorse i hope it will be his teammate Donny Van den beek, has played very good When i have seen him and he is same age as Frenkie.

I don't even really like Barcelona, but I want to know how people on forums of other clubs talk about our players (Ajax). Believe me, Donny van de Beek is way way way way way worse than Frenkie. He almost reminds me of a player like Davy Klaassen (not entirely in terms of playing style, but more about how his career is going to be). Klaassen was our captain and then failed at Everton. Donny will never reach the class of Frenkie. When De Jong got into the staring eleven of our national squad, it looked like everyone was starting to play better because of him. Players like Wijnaldum, who never deliverd at the national team, started to play so much better. And that's something only Frenkie can do. Van de Beek will do your no good.

 

[Magyarkhan]

I don't even really like Barcelona, but I want to know how people on forums of other clubs talk about our players (Ajax). Believe me, Donny van de Beek is way way way way way worse than Frenkie. He almost reminds me of a player like Davy Klaassen (not entirely in terms of playing style, but more about how his career is going to be). Klaassen was our captain and then failed at Everton. Donny will never reach the class of Frenkie. When De Jong got into the staring eleven of our national squad, it looked like everyone was starting to play better because of him. Players like Wijnaldum, who never deliverd at the national team, started to play so much better. And that's something only Frenkie can do. Van de Beek will do your no good.

True, Donny aint good enough.

 

[Zidane82]

FDJ possesses technique, intelligence, creativity, pace, height, and strength. He has the potential to be a great midfielder.

With all those qualities I'm guessing he ain't stupid so he won't be jumping on this out of control train wreck !

 

[Gnidrologist]

If he's not stupid he'd also be smart enough to understand that Valverde will not be here for long. We will crash out of CL by another miserable performance almost guaranteed and that will seal the deal for him.

 

[DonAndres]

BBZ is clowning here with these essays lol I've never seen such absurd and baseless opinions fleshed out so redundantly.

FDJ in the Champions League (per game basis): 1.5 tackles, 1.8 interceptions, 1.5 aerial duels won
Rakitic in the Champions League: 1 tackle, 1.8 interceptions, .8 aerial duels won

FDJ in the UEFA nations league: 1 tackle, 1 interception, 1 aerial duel won

Playing in a challenging CL group and a very challenging UEFA group (multiple games against France and Germany). He's 1.8 meters tall to Rakitic's 1.84. Hustles plenty on the pitch and his defensive awareness in midfield genuinely looks like he could bang with any top 10 midfielder in the world (and has owned Kante/Pogba multiple times already). I've been extremely impressed with how he has progressed defensively and most performances he has are great 2 way performances both going forward and tracking back.

FDJ has passed every test he's faced with flying colors, even more than what Arthur showed before we got him. He is legitimately as close as you can get to a guaranteed success from an U21 midfield transfer.

But go ahead and believe the guy that thinks Rabiot is a physical tank that bullies everyone in midfield.