Gerardo "Tata" Martino

[big_man]

Ramos in midfield doesn't make Madrid more defensive (they put him there to mark Messi) and you have found one game where a team resorted to 5 defenders. Any more examples? Every time Madrid have the ball for more than 10 seconds in the opposition half, you see the familiar bunker bed defence forming in the opposition lines.

How are teams supposed to attack Barcelona if they can't get the ball?

Errr damn near every game? In games against Barca the DM of the opposing team is LITERALLY another defender.I think its pretty obvious teams play extra defensive against us relative to Madrid
For example, against us Villareal played three in the middle with Pina as the DM. Today they played two in the middle and two forwards, with no DM.

 

[DinhoR10]

Ramos in midfield doesn't make Madrid more defensive (they put him there to mark Messi) and you have found one game where a team resorted to 5 defenders. Any more examples? Every time Madrid have the ball for more than 10 seconds in the opposition half, you see the familiar bunker bed defence forming in the opposition lines.

How are teams supposed to attack Barcelona if they can't get the ball?

In the first half of the season the complete night and day difference between tactics in the Villarreal team against us and madrid. They played madrid full on attacking but they just put 10 men behind the ball against us. I can go on and on but i don't have the energy in my fingers to type all of that.

And theres a difference between not having the ball and parking the bus teams used to not park the bus and play a normal shape while still not having the ball.

 

[footyfan]

Pina is a midfielder and he didn't play today because he was suspended.

 

[footyfan]

In the first half of the season the complete night and day difference between tactics in the Villarreal team against us and madrid. They played madrid full on attacking but they just put 10 men behind the ball against us. I can go on and on but i don't have the energy in my fingers to type all of that.

How are they supposed to attack if they don't get the ball? The answer to that is pressing and leaving spaces at the back. However, it's not like they are pressing Madrid are they? They are just getting possession of the ball because Madrid give it away.

 

[big_man]

In the first half of the season the complete night and day difference between tactics in the Villarreal team against us and madrid. They played madrid full on attacking but they just put 10 men behind the ball against us. I can go on and on but i don't have the energy in my fingers to type all of that.

And theres a difference between not having the ball and parking the bus teams used to not park the bus and play a normal shape while still not having the ball.

Yup, that is what I've been trying to say. I mean, it is probably trivia information that is fairly obvious. But tonight really highlighted that fact for me.

 

[footyfan]

All this talk about Sociedad and they have played a 4-2-3-1 against Barca and Madrid almost all the time. I can also pick out a time they played 5 defenders vs Madrid (some time in 2012) and I believe they got thrashed.

 

[DinhoR10]

All this talk about Sociedad and they have played a 4-2-3-1 against Barca and Madrid almost all the time. I can also pick out a time they played 5 defenders vs Madrid (some time in 2012) and I believe they got thrashed.

I'm not excusing our unmotivated play and saying that we shouldn't have raped sociedad more than 2-0 but If you look at classicos like the manita, Madrid were fighting with us in midfield for the ball (They didnt get it but still). Most teams used to do that back then and wouldn't get the ball so now the default is to just defend with your life and hope for a counter.

 

[Gohan]

Tata's tactics in general.

Plan A : Messi on false 9, the gameplay evolves around him. He is the centre of the attack, this causes the centre of the pitch to be overcrowded.

Plan B : Messi drops deep, very deep and starts playmaking. I think Tata used this quite a few times, as you can see Messi assisted 5 goals in the last 8 games sacrificing his own goal tally. While previously he had 4 assists in 16 games.

Personally I would like to see a plan B with Messi on the right wing, we should face it our team was playing better as a whole when Messi was injured. We had different goalscorers; Cesc, Pedro, Alexis all of the on the scoresheet. When Messi returned it looks like our overall team play drops, I think it is because the attack evolves around him. When moving Messi out on the right, I think it could cause our other players to start playing their own game again and make Messi no the main point of our attack.

 

[Gascav]

I'm not excusing our unmotivated play and saying that we shouldn't have raped sociedad more than 2-0 but If you look at classicos like the manita, Madrid were fighting with us in midfield for the ball (They didnt get it but still). Most teams used to do that back then and wouldn't get the ball so now the default is to just defend with your life and hope for a counter.

And teams which used the tactic well reaped the benefit

 

[Gascav]

Tata's tactics in general.

Plan A : Messi on false 9, the gameplay evolves around him. He is the centre of the attack, this causes the centre of the pitch to be overcrowded.

Plan B : Messi drops deep, very deep and starts playmaking. I think Tata used this quite a few times, as you can see Messi assisted 5 goals in the last 8 games sacrificing his own goal tally. While previously he had 4 assists in 16 games.

Personally I would like to see a plan B with Messi on the right wing, we should face it our team was playing better as a whole when Messi was injured. We had different goalscorers; Cesc, Pedro, Alexis all of the on the scoresheet. When Messi returned it looks like our overall team play drops, I think it is because the attack evolves around him. When moving Messi out on the right, I think it could cause our other players to start playing their own game again and make Messi no the main point of our attack.

Like in the classico

 

[footyfan]

I'm not excusing our unmotivated play and saying that we shouldn't have raped sociedad more than 2-0 but If you look at classicos like the manita, Madrid were fighting with us in midfield for the ball (They didnt get it but still). Most teams used to do that back then and wouldn't get the ball so now the default is to just defend with your life and hope for a counter.

Firstly, 2-0 vs Sociedad as a result is very very good.

Secondly, obviously teams do not actively commit people to getting the ball from Barcelona as quickly as possible. My point is that it's the same situation in the Madrid games too. With the difference being that Madrid give the ball away quickly and leave space in midfield while Barca don't do either of these. Because the opposition now have the ball and see spaces in midfield, they have the chance to attack and fill those spaces and get people moving forward, with both forwards and midfielders. In the other situation when Madrid have an extended spell of possession, you see the familiar 8/9 players behind the ball from the opposition.

Against Barcelona, the spaces are behind the defence, hence the players who are primarily activated on a counter are usually just the forwards.

 

[big_man]

Firstly, 2-0 vs Sociedad as a result is very very good.

Secondly, obviously teams do not actively commit people to getting the ball from Barcelona as quickly as possible. My point is that it's the same situation in the Madrid games too. With the difference being that Madrid give the ball away quickly and leave space in midfield while Barca don't do either of these. Because the opposition now have the ball and see spaces in midfield, they have the chance to attack and fill those spaces and get people moving forward, with both forwards and midfielders. In the other situation when Madrid have an extended spell of possession, you see the familiar 8/9 players behind the ball from the opposition.

Against Barcelona, the spaces are behind the defence, hence the players who are primarily activated on a counter are usually just the forwards.

Fair point. The Sociedad game was a weird one. I thought we looked better playing against 11 than we did playing against 10. We missed two sitters before Busi finally scored. That game should have been 3-0 before their red card.

EDIT: Well, 3 or 4-1 with Mascherano's brain fart. I'm seriously leaning towards the camp of Bartra starting ahead of him now.

He' a player that can either give you a 9 or a 4, I don't sense consistency from him. If the Masch that played against Atletico can be that way for 70% of the time we'd be be conceding like once every three games.

 

[DinhoR10]

Firstly, 2-0 vs Sociedad as a result is very very good.

Secondly, obviously teams do not actively commit people to getting the ball from Barcelona as quickly as possible. My point is that it's the same situation in the Madrid games too. With the difference being that Madrid give the ball away quickly and leave space in midfield while Barca don't do either of these. Because the opposition now have the ball and see spaces in midfield, they have the chance to attack and fill those spaces and get people moving forward, with both forwards and midfielders. In the other situation when Madrid have an extended spell of possession, you see the familiar 8/9 players behind the ball from the opposition.

Against Barcelona, the spaces are behind the defence, hence the players who are primarily activated on a counter are usually just the forwards.

My statement was more about the way we played not the result i only saw half the match and we looked unmotivated as usual.

And I understand what you're trying to say and madrid not being able to hold possession well makes it hard to see what i'm saying so let me use bayern as an example. They're excellent at holding possession under Pep especially just like us (Not as good if you ask me), but in the bundesliga they are afforded much more space as opposed to the 2 lines of 5 and 4 that we're made to deal with week in and week out. When you watch a Bayern goal you'll see a regular amount of opposition players behind the ball, 3 or 4 and 5 at the most. Watch most of our goals and you'll see 5 is the minimum with the only time we get 3 or 4 is on counters.

Edit: Granted I only watch about 2 or 3 bayern games a month.

 

[Theconomist]

I don't think Tata is that great of a tactician. He's an above average manager all around decent manager but he's definitely nothing special.
He needs to have some more marge de manoeuvre during the next transfer window to build the team the way he sees fit.
We are long overdue an overhaul. Instead of that 600m stadium plan we should have invested in the team (the inflated price we paid for Neymar doesn't count).

 

[DinhoR10]

I don't think Tata is that great of a tactician. He's an above average manager all around decent manager but he's definitely nothing special.
He needs to have some more marge de manoeuvre during the next transfer window to build the team the way he sees fit.
We are long overdue an overhaul. Instead of that 600m stadium plan we should have invested in the team (the inflated price we paid for Neymar doesn't count).

He's a good manager not amazing, but he has a team with 4 players that have a stake in being one of the best in their respecitive positions of all time (Even if xavi is past the stage of regular quality play). He should and has shown for the most part that he can do enough to let these players bring home the goods but he needs to do more to motivate them, somethings wrong when the only thing that can motivate iniesta is a classico (He seems to be recovering now though).