Hans-Dieter Flick

Hansi Flick - how do we rate him?


  • Total voters
    112

Birdy

Senior Member
You could they would be irrelevant, you don't win 20 games 1-0 by luck.
Again like you are 1 and through bad luck.

AGAIN: no matter how many times you write it, this is arbitrary,

If in each and every of the 20 games, your opponent out-xGed you and you relied on Stegen heroics or them missing sitters, then you did not deserve any point you got

Simple facts
 

RedxMAK

Active member
AGAIN: no matter how many times you write it, this is arbitrary,

If in each and every of the 20 games, your opponent out-xGed you and you relied on Stegen heroics or them missing sitters, then you did not deserve any point you got

Simple facts
Out of the 10 1-0s we had that season.
Only 3 we had lower xG than the opponent
 

RedxMAK

Active member
And to further clarify my point,
In the 14 games where we won with a difference of 1 goal.
We only had 3 games where our xG was lower than the opponent.
Stop trying to discredit Xavi’s work. Yes it wasn’t pretty but it got us the results. Barcelona ofc is a bastion of beautiful style of play but trophies matter. Like many people said in this forum. We aren’t Arsenal or Dortmund. To be satisfied, with losing while playing well instead of the opposite (winning while playing badly)
 

jamrock

Senior Member
AGAIN: no matter how many times you write it, this is arbitrary,

If in each and every of the 20 games, your opponent out-xGed you and you relied on Stegen heroics or them missing sitters, then you did not deserve any point you got

Simple facts
Wrong again but okay.
 

Maradona37

Well-known member
'You don't win X by luck'
Another arbitrary axiom

If I had time I could pull up all the xG charts for those games to see that each one was lucky
xG is a deeply flawed metric and I am tired of people mentioning it all the time like it's the be all and end all, as if they didn't even watch the game - it is especially flawed in individual games, and you rely on it way way too much. There's far more to who deserved to win a game than xG.

It is also at times a load of bollocks - according to 'xG' Spurs should have scored about 0.4 goals against Man United, despite Kulusevski for example having a sitter from 8 yards out he couldn't miss.

it's a deeply flawed metric and frankly eliminates a lot of context eg the ability of the player taking a shot.. You are a good guy but you put way too much stock in it and believe the numbers of it blindly without even analysing if the xG is deserved. The fact you think you can show who deserved to win 20 games or something just by throwing out the xG of those games and not showing a single minute of footage from any is rather ridiculous.

What is football coming to? What happened to the eye test and not relying on deeply flawed stats?
 
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Maradona37

Well-known member
An example of xG being very flawed - it doesn't take into account game state.

The other day, Bournemouth went 3-0 up at old Trafford after 50 odd minutes. They consequently took their foot off the gas and let United attack them. United therefore started creating more (decent but not great) openings, which Bournemouth were happy for as they were confident in their defensive ability and ability to counter if needed be.

United therefore racked up the xG in a phase of the game when Bournemouth were taking it easy, and when they were the team who didn't need to score and United were desperate to. Had United actually scored I bet Bournemouth would have stepped on the accelerator again and scored yet again. But they didn't need to.

Also, Bournemouth had 1.41 xG in that game and 0.7 or so came from their penalty. Semenyo's goal was a wonderful chance less than 12 yards out, that most competent forwards could finish. Are you telling me that chance and the other chances Bournemouth had accumulated to a paltry 0.7 xG?

I often see teams get played off the park in midfield but they 'win the xG' - it is a metric for stats geeks to parrot unthinkingly, sometimes these are even guys who don't watch the games. And again, having the best chances isn't the be all and end all in deserving to win - sometimes a team can create chances while being played off the park in general play, such was the case in this game.

Stats do matter, but they often conceal a lot of context too.
 
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Maradona37

Well-known member
Anyway @Birdy, look, it might come across as if I am taking shots at you. But that is not it - I like you, think you're a good guy and intelligent. I just don't know why you are so beholden to xG/stats in general (the same way I like Tempt but am baffled by his Lewy love, or think Fati is a superb guy but am perplexed why he loves Ronaldo, that sort of thing). No doubt you guys find some of my views bizarre too but I am talking from my own perspective here.

I think you're too dogmatic with stats. Yes, they can be useful, but they can also be misleading and remove plenty of context. They're just a tool or a guide - they aren't the be all and end all. I don't agree that you can decide who deserved to win 20 games by simply posting each team's respective xG - football is a lot more complex than that, there's far more to it than quality of chances. Plus, as I have said, you take these xG numbers (3.50) or whatever, and believe them on faith, without actually questioning the validity of the model or its predictive powers. Surely the fact that different models predict differing stats should imply it is flawed?

I am not a luddite, or dinosaur, who thinks stats are the devil and we should go back to never having them. Not at all. But there needs to be balance, too. They can never be the be all and end all and watching the game (the eye test) has to count for a lot too. Now, in my examples above, I will pre-empt what you will likely say - that I watch United games through the lens of my bias against them and hatred. That is true to an extent. But I like to think I can analyse a game to a decent level too, and what I saw in that game against Bournemouth was that the Cherries had large spells where they were in control, had spells where they were winning 50-50 duels and toying with United. However, the xG says they only created 0.7 xG outside their penalty, and that United created a lot more. I can never accept that because for me the Semenyo third goal is a better chance than anything United created. A lot of United chances were cutbacks to the edge of the box, which weren't amazing chances if you actually watched the game (plus take into account their forwards and other players are generally horrible finishers and showcased that by skying most of them anyway).

Ditto the Spurs game - no way did they have an expected goals of 0.4 or whatever, that is a joke from watching that game. Yet United fans and other people cling to this without actually questioning how valid these predictive models are. They just 'assume' they are right and flawless without even understanding themselves how they are generated. They don't actually understand the stats they keep mentioning. I am sure they have some use, but hanging on them like they are the be all and end all is not the way to do it.

Like I say, I like you and get on with you, but I think you should acknowledge more the qualitative aspect of football - not all shots, chances, dribbles, passes are equal. For instance, someone posts pass completion percentage of a player - it doesn't tell you the difficulty of each pass, or whether each pass was weighted correctly or very difficult to control etc (but maybe the receiver did control it and did well, alternatively another pass could be great and the receiver lets it run under his foot). Oftentimes a player successfully completes a pass, but the pass is behind the receiver and it takes all the momentum out of the move. Things like that cannot be measured by cold hard numbers.

Like I say, stats are a decent rough guide, but they should never be used unquestioningly to decide who is a better team, who deserved to win, who is the better player etc. Especially not a flawed, superficial stat like xG.

I am just posting this to further expand on my own opinions regarding stats vs watching or eye test, and to highlight that it isn't anything personal and I am not picking at you. I just feel you lean too far into stats territory and don't take enough account of more qualitative, emotional, personal stuff. Crude analogy, but it would be like looking at stats for rapes or something coldly, but not actually asking individual women who were raped what their experience was (in semi-structured interviews), to understand the personal feelings and emotions behind the rapes.

My own opinion is you need a decent balance of both, with more weight going to what your eyes and your knowledge base tells you. Rather than just using stats all the time.
 
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Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
Anyway @Birdy, look, it might come across as if I am taking shots at you. But that is not it - I like you, think you're a good guy and intelligent. I just don't know why you are so beholden to xG/stats in general (the same way I like Tempt but am baffled by his Lewy love, or think Fati is a superb guy but am perplexed why he loves Ronaldo, that sort of thing). No doubt you guys find some of my views bizarre too but I am talking from my own perspective here.

I think you're too dogmatic with stats. Yes, they can be useful, but they can also be misleading and remove plenty of context. They're just a tool or a guide - they aren't the be all and end all. I don't agree that you can decide who deserved to win 20 games by simply posting each team's respective xG - football is a lot more complex than that, there's far more to it than quality of chances. Plus, as I have said, you take these xG numbers (3.50) or whatever, and believe them on faith, without actually questioning the validity of the model or its predictive powers. Surely the fact that different models predict differing stats should imply it is flawed?

I am not a luddite, or dinosaur, who thinks stats are the devil and we should go back to never having them. Not at all. But there needs to be balance, too. They can never be the be all and end all and watching the game (the eye test) has to count for a lot too. Now, in my examples above, I will pre-empt what you will likely say - that I watch United games through the lens of my bias against them and hatred. That is true to an extent. But I like to think I can analyse a game to a decent level too, and what I saw in that game against Bournemouth was that the Cherries had large spells where they were in control, had spells where they were winning 50-50 duels and toying with United. However, the xG says they only created 0.7 xG outside their penalty, and that United created a lot more. I can never accept that because for me the Semenyo third goal is a better chance than anything United created. A lot of United chances were cutbacks to the edge of the box, which weren't amazing chances if you actually watched the game (plus take into account their forwards and other players are generally horrible finishers and showcased that by skying most of them anyway).

Ditto the Spurs game - no way did they have an expected goals of 0.4 or whatever, that is a joke from watching that game. Yet United fans and other people cling to this without actually questioning how valid these predictive models are. They just 'assume' they are right and flawless without even understanding themselves how they are generated. They don't actually understand the stats they keep mentioning. I am sure they have some use, but hanging on them like they are the be all and end all is not the way to do it.

Like I say, I like you and get on with you, but I think you should acknowledge more the qualitative aspect of football - not all shots, chances, dribbles, passes are equal. For instance, someone posts pass completion percentage of a player - it doesn't tell you the difficulty of each pass, or whether each pass was weighted correctly or very difficult to control etc (but maybe the receiver did control it and did well, alternatively another pass could be great and the receiver lets it run under his foot). Oftentimes a player successfully completes a pass, but the pass is behind the receiver and it takes all the momentum out of the move. Things like that cannot be measured by cold hard numbers.

Like I say, stats are a decent rough guide, but they should never be used unquestioningly to decide who is a better team, who deserved to win, who is the better player etc. Especially not a flawed, superficial stat like xG.

I am just posting this to further expand on my own opinions regarding stats vs watching or eye test, and to highlight that it isn't anything personal and I am not picking at you. I just feel you lean too far into stats territory and don't take enough account of more qualitative, emotional, personal stuff. Crude analogy, but it would be like looking at stats for rapes or something coldly, but not actually asking individual women who were raped what their experience was (in semi-structured interviews), to understand the personal feelings and emotions behind the rapes.

My own opinion is you need a decent balance of both, with more weight going to what your eyes and your knowledge base tells you. Rather than just using stats all the time.

Lol dude how long is this post
 

companyofcules

Well-known member
You are all talking nonsense.
City is the best evidence of a coach going too far with changing his philosophy. Adding Haland, some physical fullbacks was ok, but filling the team with low IQ runners and playing some hybrid tiki-run ruined City.

Flick is a super offensive coach. It's his philosophy, we knew it and he needs quality for that. We don't have quality, as expected, and now we blame the coach.
"We want him to change a bit" is fullish since there are elite managers specialized in what you want.
We should get Simone Inzaghi and accept we are a small club wanting 1-0 results or, even better, Cholito for the 0-0, 1-1 mentality.
Why bother to change Flick? OK, in Serbia I saw a guy dragging a wood cart with a sport car so everything is possible.
 

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