Ivan Rakitić

[BusiTheKing]

You say:
1. Liverpool has weaker midfielders
2. Liverpool dominated the possession
3. Liverpool has a better coach

I am asking you:
1. if Liverpool dominated possession, why did Barca win 3:0?
2. if Liverpool were better, why did Barca win 3:0?
3. if Klopp is a better coach, why did his team dominate match, couldn't score and were killed on counters as a rookie?

My reply:
The master

Again, sadly for some of you: nobody is handling trophies for more possession.
And a recipe in a CL and on World cups after 2012 is the same: don't have too much possession. Don't have a high defensive line. Don't come into an opponent's half with 10 players.
You will usually be killed on counters.

Btw, the last time when Barca also gave up from a possession, in 2015, we won a CL.
On the other hand, do you know what is happening in a CL lately with teams who have too much possession, play with a high defensive line and come with 10 players into an opponent's half?
I'll give you a hint:

Someone will reply: BUT we had both possession and trophies during Pep.
Well, that was 10 years ago.
With the best team ever...

Someone else will reply: but there HAS to be a way to have BOTH: possession, beautiful play and win CLs today!
Me: well, maybe there is a way.
But nobody has found it yet, so EV nad Zidane are winning trophies in a simpler way: without possession and without too much risks.

There's this story about a father and his three sons. He wants one of them to take over his company. To determine which one is best suited to manage his hard earned finances, he gives them each a million dollars of his riches and asks them to come back in a year to present what return on the investment they achieved. The first son comes back penniless, crying that he lost it all in a game of rock-paper-scissors. The father is dissappointed and dismisses the son immediately. The second comes back with 1.25 million dollars. The father is relieved and proudly asks the son what he did. The son lays out his thoroughly researched investment plan, intelligently managing risks and returns. The third comes back with 2 million dollars. The father is impressed and overjoyed and immediately hand this son his company. After a few years, the company is bankrupt and the father, depressed and confused, asks the son how on earth he managed to double his fortune in just a year. The son replies: "Oh, I won it from my brother in a game of rock-paper scissors".

This isn't about beautiful play or game philosphy. We simply weren't the better team by any measure within the purview of the two managers. Messi scoring from 30 meters isn't attributable to Valverde's merit just as Salah missing from two metres isn't Klopp's fault. What you wrote, calling Valverde "the master" honestly makes me incredibly annoyed.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi scoring from 30 meters isn't attributable to Valverde's merit just as Salah missing from two metres isn't Klopp's fault. What you wrote, calling Valverde "the master" honestly makes me incredibly annoyed.

Ok. But when Pep had the best team ever (Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves) on their prime, it was his genius and not player's success?
And when the same player, Messi, was scoring crazy solo goals out of nowhere and winning us trophies, the other coach was hailed as a genius

So, when Messi saves EV: Ev is an idiot, and it is all about Messi.
When Messi (and Xavi-Iniesta) saves Pep: Pep is a genius and we had the best teamplay ever. I am not saying that we didn't play way better, but still lots of hypocrisy.
So, this was not about Messi, this is a coach's work? Our gameplan was: keep the ball, pass it around a box, and wait until Messi comes and do something, more or less the same as today.
Midfielders weren't scoring and other attackers except Messi were scoring even less than Suarez and co today:

I don't get it, honestly.
We are "bad" now, as people say, it is all about Messi.
And during Pep, Messi was even better and he was pulling even crazier solo goals out of nowhere to save our asses (and Pep's crappy defending).

The only difference is that:
Pep played an active football and waited for Messi to score.
While EV is playing more cautious football and doing the same, waiting for Messi to score.

 

[Gnidrologist]

The right answer is that none of them is some super ultra genius, difference being is that Pep's teams are pleasant to watch, while Valverde's a chore.

 

[BBZ8800]

The right answer is that none of them is some super ultra genius, difference being is that Pep's teams are pleasant to watch, while Valverde's a chore.

I don't have anything against our team playing beautiful.

But, imo, what people don't get is:
1. Barca from 1899-2006:
= usually beautiful to watch, but with extremely weak defense, naive tactics
= and as a result, we were knocked out in 99% of cases by more pragmatic teams in a CL. And we won only 1 CL/Champions cup in the first 107 years of our history.
Remember, we always played beautiful back then, but we weren't able to win in semis and final. Our overall game was never good enough.
2. Barca 2006: Rijkaard finally mixed joga bonita and a more cautious approach (we scored only 6 goals in 6 knockout matches on road to final, with a goal ratio 6:2 iirc)
So, basically, Rijkaard won when he moved away from our classical-naive-overly attacking football.
3. Pep's Barca, the only moment in our history when we managed to have BOTH:
1) beautiful and extremely attacking play
2) and good results
But then, we had our best midfielder ever, Xavi. A guy whom I love to call "Mr. TikiTaka himself".
Then we had prime Iniesta.
Prime and young Busquets.
And the best RB ever, "a silent midfielder" Dani Alves.
Oh, and the best player in a football history, young, fast, hungry, on his prime and surrounded by 4 unreal generational talents (true generational talents, not Dembele's level of generational talents).
4. post Pep's era:
= we never had those 5 players on their prime again.
= and we never managed to play AS BEAUTIFUL as back then plus our results were never that good in a CL anymore
5. 2019: EV's Barca.
= not too beautiful football
= awesome results

I have wrote this a lot of times: people are always comparing EVERYTHING with Pep's Barca.
And they say: we play ugly, blah, blah, blah.
Do you have a logical evidence: that any team ever will be able to play as beautiful and as successfully as that team?
I don't think so.
Pep's teams after Barca=played beautiful, and had a crap results in a CL (0 trophies in 6 attempts). So, Pep KNOWS how to play THAT DESIRED STYLE, and yet even he can't win with that style anymore.
Spain after 2012: they played the same as Pep's Barca and as Spain from 2008-2012=yet they can't win shit anymore. How come?
I mean, if anyone knows how to play TikiTaka, it is the Spanish NT team, right? Yet, they are losing to more pragmatic NT teams like Germany, Portugal and France.
Or Barca after Pep=we never managed to play THAT beautiful and THAT successful in terms of CL trophies.

So, I get it. People would like to see:
1. a beautiful play
2. and winning a CL

But my point is, logic indicates that it is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that combination WITHOUT prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
So, imo, the only 2 options today ARE:

1. play like Pep, extremely beautiful, attacking and naive
= and don't win CL Trophies
2. play more pragmatic, like EV
= and win CL trophies

I know, you will now say: we could play with Frenkie-Arthur-Busi instead of Rakitic and similar.
We'll see. There are no guarantees that Frenkie-Arthur midfield duo won't be eaten alive in a CL once when they'll lose the ball, since in my opinion Arthur is weak in defense, and CLs lately are won with defense and not with attacking.
Basically, you need to secure your own goal, don't make deadly and risky mistakes around your goal, and you will eventually outwait and outsmart your opponent who will make more mistakes and you win 1:0 from a counter, free kick, a corner, or from an individual error (Pep's teams).

To some extent, CL football in semis and finals turned from:
Pep's football in 2009-2011: where the goal was to attack like crazy, create more chances than the opponent and you will eventually win.
Opponents have figured out how to kill teams who play in Pep's way (Pep's Bayern and City, Barca post Pep, Spanish NT team).
And today, CL football on the highest level turned into: we will make 1 deadly mistake per match, and the opponent will make 3 deadly mistakes and we will win 1:0 or 2:0.
You could have read some excuses in Pep's thread how he is not guilty and how City lost due to an individual errors.
Lol, this is exactly what I am talking about.
EV's Barca on Wednesday was hoofing long balls forward away from our box all the time, to AVOID any chance of making a wrong pass around the box and conceding a goal after a mistake.
That will result in an ugly football, long balls and less possession. But you won't concede.

On the other hand, what is Pep's City doing all the time?
They are keeping possession no matter what.
Their Cbs play a high line and they are in the opponent's half often.
Their CBs and fullbacks are playing risky passes and they never hoof the ball forward, since Pep doesn't like to lose possession no matter what.

And what happens then?
His Cb will make a stupid error here and there, lose a ball, and they will concede from a counter.
Or, they will just lose the ball in a regular way (let's say a CM will lose the ball), and they will again concede after counters since they have a high defensive line and they will often face 2:2 or 3:3 vs counters.

On the other hand, if EV defends deep, if he doesn't attack like crazy, if he has 4 defenders around our boy and 3 DMs in our half (Busi, Raki, Vidal) and if we are hoofing balls upfield to avoid the danger:
1. can we face counters like Pep? No
2. even if a player makes a deadly mistake, will we face a 2 vs 2 counter? No. We will face 7 vs 5 counter or something like that.

So, there is no evidence that it is possible to play both nice and successful today.
Also, you guys are ignoring the fact that coaches and scouts of other clubs are not dumb.
And if something worked (our tactics) in 2009, 2011, it doesn't mean that it will work today.
Remember how even Pep started to change things in 2012, because our tactics weren't working that good anymore in his 4th season here.
2012 was the 4th season when the opponents faced TikiTaka, and TikiTaka (Barca, Spain and Pep's Bayern after that) already started to face problems and more counters against us.
Today in 2019, it is the 11th season since TikiTaka was invented.
Even if you could copy a team from 2011 into today, don't you think that they would struggle way more than then?
I don't know whether they would be 1%, 2%, 5%, 10% or 50% weaker than that.
But I am 100% sure that they wouldn't be as good as back then.
Simply, because our opponents evolved and you can't sell the same shit/trick to an opponent for 20 times in a row.
TikiTaka/Pep's style was new, fresh and unknown back then.
Opponents were strucked and didn't know how to defend and neutralize us.
After 1-2-5-10-20 defeats, little by little they learned how what parts of our team they need to neutralize, where they can risk and HOW exactly to kill us in the most lethal way, and where and when we are the most vulnerable.
There is no way that the opponents knew how to kill us in 2009, since our tactics were new and unknown.
11 years later, that is a different story.

Again, it can't be a coincidence that BOTH: Barca after 2012, Pep's teams after 2012, Spain after 2012, ALL SUDDENLY faced bad results in a CL and on World cups and all of them are knocked out every year in exactly the same fashion:
= they play better, they have more possession. Their opponent parks a bus and these teams can't break it anymore.
= yet, they concede 1-2 goals in every match, usually after counters or after headers.
Spain, Barca and Pep's teams always lose in a CL/World cups with exactly the same stats:
Possession 65:35
Shots in total: 15:5
Score: 1:2
I mean, when that happens 10 or 20 times in a row to 3 different teams, it can't be a coincidence.

 

[Gnidrologist]

So, there is no evidence that it is possible to play both nice and successful today.

What kind of bs is this? Yes there is. Ajax says hi even if they stop now. Bayern 2013 played great as well as BvB they face in the final. Current Liverpool plays p. nice too. No one is expecting to repeat the performances of greatest club team in history though so if you're saying that (didn't read your whole post obviously) it's a strawman.

 

[BBZ8800]

What kind of bs is this? Yes there is. Ajax says hi even if they stop now. Bayern 2013 played great as well as BvB they face in the final. Current Liverpool plays p. nice too. No one is expecting to repeat the performances of greatest club team in history though so if you're saying that (didn't read your whole post obviously) it's a strawman.

So:
Pep played 6 times Pep's way after 2012=0/6 success.
Ajax played 7 times after 2012 in Pep's way.
= they have some success this season
We will see whether they will reach a final.
Barca played a few times after 2012 in Pep's way.

All in all, around 15 attempts and these clubs will have 0 or 1 Cl final.

And this is a proof for you how Pep's style still actually works?

Ev's style in 2018 and 2019 has 50% success of reaching CL finals...
Pep's style is at 7% success.

Ok, we have Messi.
But we had him in the previous 6 seasons also.
And reached a final only once, when we didn't play too attacking, when we had a good defense and when we weren't allowing counters (since we gave away possession).
What a surprise.
I am shocked with these numbers and "coincidences".

 

[Gnidrologist]

I suggest you seek medicine that remedies you from being a pathological lier. I even explicitly stated that my post has nothing to do with "Pep's way" and you still insist un blatantly lie through your teeth about what other people said to keep your retarded agenda afloat. I debunked the false statement that it's impossible to be successful by playing pleasant looking football game. Deal with it and stop being a petty dork about it.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Grindologist, "retarded agenda", like that rakitic is a nobody and not worthy to be a barca regular, something like that?

 

[Ursegor]

What kind of bs is this? Yes there is. Ajax says hi even if they stop now. Bayern 2013 played great as well as BvB they face in the final. Current Liverpool plays p. nice too. No one is expecting to repeat the performances of greatest club team in history though so if you're saying that (didn't read your whole post obviously) it's a strawman.

Bayern played great? Bayern's setup was almost identical to ours in big games: Possession high line against minnows; keeping it tight against big teams. Except they had Ribery and Robben in their primes running the counters whereas we have no pace at all on the wings.

The Bayern 4-0 game against Barca came up in my YouTube recommendations recently and they scored literally 3 goals that VAR would call off nowadays. Jumping on Alves, offside and bodychecking Alba. They were a cynical counterattacking team that spammed crosses into the box. Their winner was assisted by a Neuer hoofball in the final.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Grindologist, "retarded agenda", like that rakitic is a nobody and not worthy to be a barca regular, something like that?

No. Things like what i quoted and many more for BBZ's histrionics, demagoguery and blatant bullshit.

Bayern played great? Bayern's setup was almost identical to ours in big games: Possession high line against minnows; keeping it tight against big teams. Except they had Ribery and Robben in their primes running the counters whereas we have no pace at all on the wings.

The Bayern 4-0 game against Barca came up in my YouTube recommendations recently and they scored literally 3 goals that VAR would call off nowadays. Jumping on Alves, offside and bodychecking Alba. They were a cynical counterattacking team that spammed crosses into the box. Their winner was assisted by a Neuer hoofball in the final.

Subjective anecdotes and irrelevant issues. 2015 treble Barca did the same thing you describe and no one but most biased fool would deny that it played great football. Whatever VAR coulda shoulda done if it was there is besides the point and even Pep's Barca was cynical in a lot of tight matches. Doesn't change the fact that overall performances at the time were spectacular.

 

[BBZ8800]

I debunked the false statement that it's impossible to be successful by playing pleasant looking football game. Deal with it and stop being a petty dork about it.

Sorry, you are right.
It is not IMPOSSIBLE to be successful playing attacking, risky football in a CL in 2019.
It is possible. But the chances are around 1-8%.

And Ajax is yet to reach a final.
If Ajax won't reach it, all finalists since 2013 are counterattacking teams, since Lucho's Barca from 2015 was a similar team who gave up from our classical possession play.
Real, Real, Real, Real, Real, Lucho's Barca, EV's Barca, Juve, Juve, Atletico, Atletico, Liverpool, Bayern, Dortmund.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Nice how you shift the goal post again to weasel out. Counterattacking football =/= boring crapshoot like it's mostly with ernieball. Some of the most exciting teams in history have played fast transition style. Dynamite danes come to mind. Lucho's Barca or Jupp's Bayern was in no way boring in a similar vain like your typical italian our mourinho team was even if both employed counterattacks as one of the weapons. I wouldn't consider them playing particularly risky either.
Look, i would still be in seventh heaven and give due respect to Val if we win Cl, i just categorically disagree that there's a dichotomy between playing exciting style wise and being successful. Especially with player resources that are available to Barca. Crapping on Klopp for not having titles is disingenuous. Teams he has managed till now wouldn't even be in discussion about title race (especially in CL) with manager like Valverde. Above average overachiever players, who turn to mediocrity outside his system and supervision.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Well the posession leaders in footy this year are city, bayern, us. We have one foot in the title and city were very unlucky--missed penalty in match 1 and all 50/50 calls broke their way in leg 2. Also Real was a pretty high possession squad and quite aggressive/attacking.

I think there are no simple dichotomies between you are either an attacking/possession teams OR a counting/defensive teams. There are many more dimensions and subtleties to it.

I would concur you have to very defensively sound to have above an 8% chance to make the CL final. But after that there are lots of different ways to get the goals you need. High press, counter attack, high posession, mix, etc

 

[DonAndres]

Sorry, you are right.
It is not IMPOSSIBLE to be successful playing attacking, risky football in a CL in 2019.
It is possible. But the chances are around 1-8%.

And Ajax is yet to reach a final.
If Ajax won't reach it, all finalists since 2013 are counterattacking teams, since Lucho's Barca from 2015 was a similar team who gave up from our classical possession play.
Real, Real, Real, Real, Real, Lucho's Barca, EV's Barca, Juve, Juve, Atletico, Atletico, Liverpool, Bayern, Dortmund.

What is this horseshit narrative re-writing?

RM won 3 CL's in a row winning every midfield battle, possession or not. They weren't consistently getting pinned back in their own half and then bursting forward on 2-3 man counters the way you seem to be suggesting. They had by far the most meaningful possession/chance creation in a majority of the big games they played, even if they didn't win possession % wise (which they still often did). There's a reason they created the most chances and had the most shots. Modric and to a lesser extent Kroos/Isco dominated in the middle while Carvajal/Marcelo were exceptional at delivering offense from the wings.

We beat Liverpool despite (clearly) losing the midfield battle, as we were pinned back in our own half for most of the game until Messi scored 2 and 3-0. That made them lose all their organization, play recklessly, and just bomb forward which led to us creating more open chances afterwards. Before that, even when we had possession, we were struggling to advance the ball and were pinned back.

Almost all our ball progression comes from Messi and then Busquets/Alba to a lesser extent. Rakitic and Vidal spent most of the 1st leg twiddling their thumbs offensively (Vidal did have 1 great long ball but was bad offensively other than that). Our best players in the CL this season are undoubtedly Messi/Pique/Alba/Stegen, then Lenglet/Suarez, and then Busquets.

But, of course to you, expecting our midfielders to progress the ball is bullshit. It's crazy how that, because Messi can generate offense at will and because you take that for granted, suddenly it is not important for midfielders to actually be good at controlling the center and progressing the ball. Who needs midfielders to do more than 50% of the job they're out there for, as long as Messi is there to hide their deficiencies eh?

 

[Ursegor]

What is this horseshit narrative re-writing?

RM won 3 CL's in a row winning every midfield battle, possession or not. They weren't consistently getting pinned back in their own half and then bursting forward on 2-3 man counters the way you seem to be suggesting. They had by far the most meaningful possession/chance creation in a majority of the big games they played, even if they didn't win possession % wise (which they still often did). There's a reason they created the most chances and had the most shots. Modric and to a lesser extent Kroos/Isco dominated in the middle while Carvajal/Marcelo were exceptional at delivering offense from the wings.

We beat Liverpool despite (clearly) losing the midfield battle, as we were pinned back in our own half for most of the game until Messi scored 2 and 3-0. That made them lose all their organization, play recklessly, and just bomb forward which led to us creating more open chances afterwards. Before that, even when we had possession, we were struggling to advance the ball and were pinned back.

Almost all our ball progression comes from Messi and then Busquets/Alba to a lesser extent. Rakitic and Vidal spent most of the 1st leg twiddling their thumbs offensively (Vidal did have 1 great long ball but was bad offensively other than that). Our best players in the CL this season are undoubtedly Messi/Pique/Alba/Stegen, then Lenglet/Suarez, and then Busquets.

But, of course to you, expecting our midfielders to progress the ball is bullshit. It's crazy how that, because Messi can generate offense at will and because you take that for granted, suddenly it is not important for midfielders to actually be good at controlling the center and progressing the ball. Who needs midfielders to do more than 50% of the job they're out there for, as long as Messi is there to hide their deficiencies eh?

Meh, that's some nonsense right there, mate. People were sitting here every CL matchday and fuming about Zidane's black magic. Juventus was up 3-0 in the Bernabeu before Madrid magically got a penalty in extra time. Injury-riddled Bayern with 35 year old Ribery were outplaying them with ease until Ulreich and Rafinha gifted them Sunday League level goals.

[tw]991419777896902656[/tw]

In comparison, here is our game against Liverpool:

(Messi's freekick barely factors in this as it had a very very low expected goal return).

Also Madrid always played a low block defensive 4-4-2 under Zidane.

Modric and Kroos dominating anything is pure fiction. They were badly outplayed and going out against Schalke a couple seasons ago if not for a Ronaldo hattrick (striking one back every time after Schalke had scored).

[tw]984177560664846338[/tw]

Ter Stegen being one of our top 4 players is also fiction. He barely had any saves to make this entire CL run. The first real safe he had to make against United was from a Sanchez shot after I don't know, 175 minutes of the entire tie? Then he made one safe against Liverpool from Milner who shot straight at him.

Getting pressed hard and ceding possession might be a new experience after decade of Xaviesta excellence but let's not make stuff up now, tactically and with the player material available we are doing excellent (far better than overhyped Kroos-Modric midfield) and it's not just Messi dribbling 5 defenders every time.