Ivan Rakitić
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
How many times have you been at Camp Nou?
He was applauded out of respect because he's been a servant of the club for a relatively long time.
He contributed with absolutely nothing as he doesn't have a single trait that stands out in our midfield, he's average at everything. Only positive with him is that he scores good goals sometimes, but his longshots are kind of overrated, he either skies it to Les Rambles or scores a nice goal, like Cristiano's free kicks.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Whoscored says:
Rakitic total this season:
369 minutes, 2 tackles, 5 interceptions, 2 clearances, 2 blocks
Arthur, 846 minutes, 13 tackles, 5 interceptions, 2 clearances
Rakitic makes a defensive contribution each 33,5 minutes.
Arthur 42,3 minutes.
Now, I would like to get inside your brains and understand those alibies.
So, Rakitic is having the worst season ever.
He is slow.
He is old.
He isn't doing anything worthwile on the pitch.
Yet, still, even in that horrible state he managed, as always, to have better defensive numbers than a forum's favorite, the 2nd best midfielder in the world.
Do you guys even understand how shit in defending is Arthur when even this old and drained version of Rakitic is better than him in that area?
Not only Rakitic, of course that Vidal, Frenkie and Busi all have way better numbers.
So, we have Messi and Suarez who need babysitters so that a team could regain defensive balance and you guys are surprised that for two seasons in a row, Arthur, the weakest defender in our midfield, is losing his place?
I have checked some stats now.
Can you believe that even Cm-Cam Rafinha had better defensive numbers than Arthur?
And Coutinho is quite close to him also.
But I enjoy reading these posts and insults here.
It feels as some sort of a parallel universe or a twilight zone.
Keep em coming, guys.
All defensive stats for these two according to whoscored.
Firstly positive defensive stats:
Rakitic in la liga and UCL:
369 mins: 2 tackles, 6 interceptions, 2 clearances, 2 shots blocked, 5 passes blocked
17 positive defensive contributions in 369 mins = 1 every 21.7 mins.
Arthur in la liga and UCL:
846 mins: 13 tackles, 5 interceptions, 3 clearances, 0 shots blocked, 9 passes blocked.
30 positive defensive contributions in 846 mins = 1 every 28.2 mins.
Now, negative defensive stats:
Rakitic in la liga and UCL:
dribbled past 5 times, fouls conceded 7
12 negative contributions in 369 mins = 1 every 30.1 mins, without including fouls (1 every 73.8 mins)
Arthur in la liga and UCL:
dribbled past 1 time, fouls conceded 9
10 negative contributions in 846 mins = 1 every 84.6, without fouls (1 every 846 mins)
That suggests to me they're fairly equal in this department, at least for this season.
Firstly positive defensive stats:
Rakitic in la liga and UCL:
369 mins: 2 tackles, 6 interceptions, 2 clearances, 2 shots blocked, 5 passes blocked
17 positive defensive contributions in 369 mins = 1 every 21.7 mins.
Arthur in la liga and UCL:
846 mins: 13 tackles, 5 interceptions, 3 clearances, 0 shots blocked, 9 passes blocked.
30 positive defensive contributions in 846 mins = 1 every 28.2 mins.
Now, negative defensive stats:
Rakitic in la liga and UCL:
dribbled past 5 times, fouls conceded 7
12 negative contributions in 369 mins = 1 every 30.1 mins, without including fouls (1 every 73.8 mins)
Arthur in la liga and UCL:
dribbled past 1 time, fouls conceded 9
10 negative contributions in 846 mins = 1 every 84.6, without fouls (1 every 846 mins)
That suggests to me they're fairly equal in this department, at least for this season.
BusiTheKing
Senior Member
Look BBZ,
Wilfried Ndidi makes 6 times as many tackles as Van Dijk pr. 90. Phil Foden, Lallana, Moutinho, Dani Ceballos make more tackles than Jordan Henderson, Fabian Delph, Kante.
You just can't measure defensive contribution in number of tackles, interceptions and that shit. Before all that, it's 80% running, pressing and positioning. Being in the right spot, occupying the right space, cutting off the right pass lanes. Rakitic doesn't run enough for that to be good defensively. Arthur is about the same as Rakitic, I'd say, and he gives much more in other areas of the game.
Wilfried Ndidi makes 6 times as many tackles as Van Dijk pr. 90. Phil Foden, Lallana, Moutinho, Dani Ceballos make more tackles than Jordan Henderson, Fabian Delph, Kante.
You just can't measure defensive contribution in number of tackles, interceptions and that shit. Before all that, it's 80% running, pressing and positioning. Being in the right spot, occupying the right space, cutting off the right pass lanes. Rakitic doesn't run enough for that to be good defensively. Arthur is about the same as Rakitic, I'd say, and he gives much more in other areas of the game.
behindbrowneyes
Well-known member
4 interceptions sounds nice, but that Dortmund team was throwing a turnover-party yesterday, so.....
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Rory, this is Raki's worst season in a career.
He played garbage minutes here and there.
Or, if we use Barcaforum's excuse for favorite players=he needs time, confidence and consistency.
Raki's Barca career in La liga.
Tackles per match:
1,8 Raki 2016
1,6 Raki 2017
1,5 Raki 2018
1,2 Raki 2015
0,9 Raki 2019
0,9 Arthur 2020**
0,6 Arthur 2019**
0,0 Raki 2020**
Interceptions:
1,5 Raki 2019
1,4 Raki 2016
1,3 Raki 2018
1,1 Raki 2017
0,9 Raki 2015
0,4 Arthur 2020**
0,3 Arthur 2019**
0,1 Raki 2020**
Clearances:
0,8 Raki 2019
0,5 Raki 2016
0,4 Raki 2015
0,4 Raki 2017
0,4 Raki 2018
0,3 Raki 2020**
0,3 Arthur 2019**
0,3 Arthur 2020**
Now, take a look at prime or "normal" Rakitic.
In every single of Raki's seasons, except THIS season, he was MILES better defensively than anything what has Arthur offered in these 2 seasons.
So, am I lying of twisting stats when I say:
If you remove Raki from Lucho's years or Raki from EV's first 2 seasons, and if you replace him with Arthur=don't you think that we will be weakened in defense (even though we already have 2 lazy attackers who don't run and defend too much in Messi and Suarez)? Of course we will be weakened.
The other question: even THE WORST Raki ever, a current one who was frozen, lost confidence, can barely run and plays garbage minutes here and there, STILL has almost equal (or slightly better) defensive stats than Arthur who is supposed to be in his physical prime.
So, this is not a lie or stat-twisting:
1. over 6 years, Raki was MILES better defender than Arthur
2. and even the worst version of Raki is still slightly better in defending than Arthur.
Do I have to explain that if you give more minutes and consistancy to Rakitic today, that he will on larger samples reach a better form and that he will again have MILES better defensive numbers than Arthur.
But this is exactly one of "my problems" with our forum.
You decided that Arthur is some mighty footballer because he reminds you of Xavi.
Yet, you are closing eyes to the other areas of play where he has 4 goals and 7 assists in his whole career, which means:
That he will score a goal every 1500 minutes.
And make an assist every 880 minutes.
Yet, Rakitic with a goal each 494 minutes and an assist each 472 minutes is a joke and Lamparditic and a biggest cancer in a team who isn't contributing to absolutely anything.
In short:
1. during his whole career, Rakitic is way better than Arthur in terms of goals and assists per minute
2. during his Barca career, Rakitic is way better than Arthur in terms of goals and assists per minute
3. during his whole career, Rakitic has miles better defensive stats than Arthur
4. during his Barca career, Rakitic has miles better defensive stats than Arthur
Arthur's only virtues for now are press resistance and recycling possession.
But then, when we play at Camp Nou versus a Mickey Mouse La Liga team who parked a bus, where will you use Arthur's press resistance since no one is attacking him. Plus, how will you use his possession since we anyway have 60-70% possession at home vs anyone.
And then, when we play away from home: his press resistance and possession is a nice asset, but when we lose the ball, we are very fragile in defense.
Again, all of this doesn't mean that Arthur is a bad player. He is a very good player.
But it amazes me how people are "confused" and "shocked" when Arthur is benched, when he is tired, or when a team with a CM duo Frenkie-Arthur is quite light and all over the place defensively in away matches.
Yeah, a pure coincidence
If Arthur-Frenkie played in a team like City with 11 mobile players, MAYBE they could work as a duo there, where all players run and press.
But here, at Barca, with Club De Amigos, old Messi, old Suarez, we CAN'T play Pep's football anymore.
The same as how static Suarez is a better fit for our static system as a no9 than a mobile Griezmann, maybe something similar is happening with CMs and pivots, and even old grannies Busi and Raki are just better than Frenkie-Arthur duo because they hold/keep their positions.
This old and static team just plays better and gets less exposed when it defends with Raki-Busi who don't vacant their defensive position.
Remember that this old, drained, static team had the best results (in terms of wins and the lowest amount of goals conceded) in 2017 when we played 442 with not too much movement in midfield.
Midfield was nice in defending, we didn't let go too many goals in, and Messi+Suarez in attack have done their job in every match.
And we had 10s of 1:0 and 2:0 wins over and over.
Once when we started to add Dembeles, Coutinhos, Arthurs and similar, our defense and stability got weaker.
I am not saying that 442 or a static football is the way to go.
But in this moment, that old, balanced and boring style brings way more stability and better results.
Regarding Anfield, we will probably lose again with that style.
But except Anfield, we will win in 90% of other matches with that old, boring, safer, static approach.
Imo, for Frenkie-Arthur duo to shine, we would need to get rid of all oldies and build a completely new, young and mobile team.
And even then, there is no guarantees that it will work.
For now it is a wishful thinking.
Last edited:
soul24rage
Senior Member
Busi is suspended, so it's very likely Rakitic will start.
Rory, this is Raki's worst season in a career.
He played garbage minutes here and there.
Or, if we use Barcaforum's excuse for favorite players=he needs time, confidence and consistency.
Raki's Barca career in La liga.
Tackles per match:
1,8 Raki 2016
1,6 Raki 2017
1,5 Raki 2018
1,2 Raki 2015
0,9 Raki 2019
0,9 Arthur 2020**
0,6 Arthur 2019**
0,0 Raki 2020**
Interceptions:
1,5 Raki 2019
1,4 Raki 2016
1,3 Raki 2018
1,1 Raki 2017
0,9 Raki 2015
0,4 Arthur 2020**
0,3 Arthur 2019**
0,1 Raki 2020**
Clearances:
0,8 Raki 2019
0,5 Raki 2016
0,4 Raki 2015
0,4 Raki 2017
0,4 Raki 2018
0,3 Raki 2020**
0,3 Arthur 2019**
0,3 Arthur 2020**
Now, take a look at prime or "normal" Rakitic.
In every single of Raki's seasons, except THIS season, he was MILES better defensively than anything what has Arthur offered in these 2 seasons.
So, am I lying of twisting stats when I say:
If you remove Raki from Lucho's years or Raki from EV's first 2 seasons, and if you replace him with Arthur=don't you think that we will be weakened in defense (even though we already have 2 lazy attackers who don't run and defend too much in Messi and Suarez)? Of course we will be weakened.
The other question: even THE WORST Raki ever, a current one who was frozen, lost confidence, can barely run and plays garbage minutes here and there, STILL has almost equal (or slightly better) defensive stats than Arthur who is supposed to be in his physical prime.
So, this is not a lie or stat-twisting:
1. over 6 years, Raki was MILES better defender than Arthur
2. and even the worst version of Raki is still slightly better in defending than Arthur.
Do I have to explain that if you give more minutes and consistancy to Rakitic today, that he will on larger samples reach a better form and that he will again have MILES better defensive numbers than Arthur.
But this is exactly one of "my problems" with our forum.
You decided that Arthur is some mighty footballer because he reminds you of Xavi.
Yet, you are closing eyes to the other areas of play where he has 4 goals and 7 assists in his whole career, which means:
That he will score a goal every 1500 minutes.
And make an assist every 880 minutes.
Yet, Rakitic with a goal each 494 minutes and an assist each 472 minutes is a joke and Lamparditic and a biggest cancer in a team who isn't contributing to absolutely anything.
In short:
1. during his whole career, Rakitic is way better than Arthur in terms of goals and assists per minute
2. during his Barca career, Rakitic is way better than Arthur in terms of goals and assists per minute
3. during his whole career, Rakitic has miles better defensive stats than Arthur
4. during his Barca career, Rakitic has miles better defensive stats than Arthur
Arthur's only virtues for now are press resistance and recycling possession.
But then, when we play at Camp Nou versus a Mickey Mouse La Liga team who parked a bus, where will you use Arthur's press resistance since no one is attacking him. Plus, how will you use his possession since we anyway have 60-70% possession at home vs anyone.
And then, when we play away from home: his press resistance and possession is a nice asset, but when we lose the ball, we are very fragile in defense.
Again, all of this doesn't mean that Arthur is a bad player. He is a very good player.
But it amazes me how people are "confused" and "shocked" when Arthur is benched, when he is tired, or when a team with a CM duo Frenkie-Arthur is quite light and all over the place defensively in away matches.
Yeah, a pure coincidence
If Arthur-Frenkie played in a team like City with 11 mobile players, MAYBE they could work as a duo there, where all players run and press.
But here, at Barca, with Club De Amigos, old Messi, old Suarez, we CAN'T play Pep's football anymore.
The same as how static Suarez is a better fit for our static system as a no9 than a mobile Griezmann, maybe something similar is happening with CMs and pivots, and even old grannies Busi and Raki are just better than Frenkie-Arthur duo because they hold/keep their positions.
This old and static team just plays better and gets less exposed when it defends with Raki-Busi who don't vacant their defensive position.
Remember that this old, drained, static team had the best results (in terms of wins and the lowest amount of goals conceded) in 2017 when we played 442 with not too much movement in midfield.
Midfield was nice in defending, we didn't let go too many goals in, and Messi+Suarez in attack have done their job in every match.
And we had 10s of 1:0 and 2:0 wins over and over.
Once when we started to add Dembeles, Coutinhos, Arthurs and similar, our defense and stability got weaker.
I am not saying that 442 or a static football is the way to go.
But in this moment, that old, balanced and boring style brings way more stability and better results.
Regarding Anfield, we will probably lose again with that style.
But except Anfield, we will win in 90% of other matches with that old, boring, safer, static approach.
Imo, for Frenkie-Arthur duo to shine, we would need to get rid of all oldies and build a completely new, young and mobile team.
And even then, there is no guarantees that it will work.
For now it is a wishful thinking.
When you say "if we use barcaforum's excuse", why is that? If they are wrong then that shouldn't be used to defend your arguments. Also the rest of barcaforum don't speak for me nor I them.
I'm not arguing Rakitic wasn't better at defending in previous years, however when deciding who should start in the here and now previous seasons don't play a part in this, or at least they shouldn't. But here's the real stickler. I'm not even saying Rakitic shouldn't ever play, nor that Arthur should play every game. In fact yesterday's game was perfect for Rakitic and I would have started him, a low pressure defensive xi from Dortmund is exactly when he should be used. And yet he still made little impact, in fact nearly gifted them a 1-0 lead.
"MILES better defensively than anything what has Arthur offered in these 2 seasons" You know Arthur has only been here 1 season and a third of this season, you've said 2 seasons because you know it makes it sound more like he should be doing a lot better. Prime Rakitic was better than current Arthur at defending, OF COURSE HE WAS. Prime Rakitic vs 22 year old first season in europe and 23 year old Arthur.
Also a couple things: Arthur is not in his physical prime, I'm really not sure why you've said that, is any player in their physical prime at 23, maybe some but most are around 27-29. The idea that every person on this forum thinks he's the next xavi is a strawman you've created to attack and attack again. I've seen a few people say it, probably thought it myself when he's done a very xavi-esque thing but only people who are naive think he's the next xavi. Then your responses are these lists of stats that miss out key stats as I've just shown and in response to me you do the same thing?!
And What is this obsession with it being a duo? Last time I checked we played 4-3-3 most games, 3 midfielders not 2. The idea that it's an Arthur-Frenkie duo = bad is another false premise because it's not a duo it's a trio.
As someone mentioned above stats don't paint the full picture, and he gave multiple examples. Prime Rakitic was a better fit and better player in that barca side, (the one with prime MSN up top) than current Arthur but not by a gigantic amount like you paint out. Arthur has played ok to very good in every game he's played this year. Last year he was probably just average in most, not bad for his first season. His stats with Brazil are pretty good btw, look at the copa america, his defensive stats are particularly good. Arthur and frenkie have played a handful of games together and we're supposed to throw in the towel on them playing together because we've been defensively frail. And this has nothing to do with Pique playing badly, several defensive injuries, Messi injured, or that Arthur played an international tournament to the end and Frenkie is literally a brand new player? I think you know it's unfair to judge how well 2 players play together based on a handful of games. If rakitic moves on this year to inter let's say and takes a few months to settle in will you have thrown in the towel for him there?
Home of Barca Fans
