Lionel Messi - v7

[MagIX]

And about 10 or so assists, off course all that doesn't suit his agenda so he won't remember/ignore it/or come up with something else.

+1

 

[Vilarrubi]

Koeman: "Messi has been playing a very tight schedule for many years. I want my line-up to be the best possible in each game. Leo is a player who gets even more tired if he doesn't play. He is a winner."


Inb4 4 x 90 mins in upcoming games.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Cuckman.

 

[Alik]

Koeman: "Messi has been playing a very tight schedule for many years. I want my line-up to be the best possible in each game. Leo is a player who gets even more tired if he doesn't play. He is a winner."

Where is the logic in this.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Leo is a player who gets even more tired if he doesn't play. He is a winner."

Genius comment from Koeman

In other words: Koewoman has no balls to rest Messi but lets be honest no coach in the world would do it.

 

[Porque]

Messi is contracted to always pay if fit, for Sponsorship, Marketing reasons. Most likely scenario.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Messi is contracted to always pay if fit, for Sponsorship, Marketing reasons. Most likely scenario.

This are excuses. Why do we never sub him when we lead 4-0 or something ? Since the restart he is the only player who played ALL matches. It would be even too much for a 20 years old player and Messi is nearly 34.

 

[Kul_z]

One of the best leo games was in el classico thrashing and he scored- 0.

 

[serghei]

Where is the logic in this.

The logic is that he knows Messi can't be benched or subbed unless he asks for it. So he will say whatever he needs to so it appears it's his decision.

 

[Morten]

The logic is that he knows Messi can't be benched or subbed unless he asks for it. So he will say whatever he needs to so it appears it's his decision.

I dont believe some of the stuff you seem to believe in, that Messi pretty much runs the club, thats absurd.
But, he really cant be benched, ever, can he? Why does he keep playing every single cup match for one? Has to be something in his contract regarding this.

This goes back years, just to draw a comparison, Ronaldo since 2014 or so, started resting and simply not playing too many of them, while Messi went on and on, playing every single cup match you could find.

 

[CatalinR10]

the GOAT.

 

[henias]

The point was that you were doubling down on a falsehood without checking the stats/facts.

It's hard to put faith in your football arguments when the numbers aren't even accurate?

With the broader argument about Messi's status in the game. I've said many times over the last couple of years that he's a GOAT but not THE GOAT. He set THE GOAT standards from 2008-2015 where he won 5 Ballon, 3 CL, 5 LL, and averaged ~55 goals a season those 7 seasons with dominant performances in CL. But his career since then has been a disappointment, not because he hasn't won another CL/Copa/WC. But because he hasn't delivered top performances in those tournaments outside of Liverpool 2019 or to a lesser degree Chelsea 2017 (who were good but not great). Before his fanboys come at me, I realize Barcelona/Argentina has been declining in this time period, but THE GOAT has to deliver a top performance at least 50% of the important matches, where it's been maybe 10-25% for Messi in these 5 years.

Right now he's in the mix with Maradona, Pele, CR7, Cruyff etc. All of them have their pros and cons and all have very accomplished careers but not a near flawless one.

I will say that IF he can pull a CL out of nowhere (very unlikely), we can again give him serious consideration for THE GOAT because he'd have done it with an otherwise average/decent Barca squad (compared to MSN or Xaviesta at least). The other guys like Pele, Cruyff, CR7 won their big trophies when they had dominant teams. Same with Messi. Maradona doesn't have many big trophies but he won his biggest without a dominant team and he's worshipped for this feat. So, Messi lifting this Barca to a CL would put him back on top IMO. Of course, CR7 can go top if he manages to take this average Juve to a CL as well.

Come on now, back then, every defender and their mother had the same idea; they were just mindlessly pressuring and commiting to tackles every time. Against a dribbling maestro like Maradona, it's going to end up catastrohpic. They were leaving acres of spaces behind them and attackers were just easily let through, literally simple one-twos that you dont see nowadays where theres so much zonal marking that makes every offensive short passing team futile. Even if u disagree, Maradona's teammate were flawlessly making great passes and finishes, which you hardly see in Argentina's team where they struggle with the most basic chemistry. Higuain's miss in the final is a big example.

It's always been a team game heavily mixed with tactics. Someone has to do their part even if it isn't a significant or obvious one. The team has to click most importantly. It's not as simple as whichever GOAT will win their team the trophy, moreso in the modern era where teams are more organised.

 

[Birdy]

On larger sample it evens out, about best teams winning it.
How come that in 98, 00 or 03 5th placed teams like RM, Milan or Liverpool were winning CLs?

Do you know why?
Because RM and Juve weren't that richer than their league opponents.

Also, how was it possible for RM and Barca to end 5th back then?
Because they weren't that richer so every league had 4-5 big clubs.

Also, look at how Juve, Bayern, Psg, Barca-Real have like 10 league titles in a row.
Why?
Because big clubs got way richer.
The gulf in power is insane.

That is creating 6:0 or 7:1 wins, 100 points records and 100+ goals seasons.
This is why all big clubs are breaking all records in all big leagues.
And why all top players from today look like best players ever.

Stats are seriously screwed in the last 10 years.

Fucking Neymar, Suarez and Lewa are better than R9, Van Basten and Batistuta.
Suarez always had problems with controlling the ball.

Please.
That is hillarious.

I don't buy that, and here is why:

You are conflating two independent factors:
i) accumulation of wealth/capital to fewer and fewer big clubs (which has undeniably accelerated the last 20 years)
ii) the evolution of the game itself, which is integral (based on the evolution of tactics)

There is some connection between i) and ii) -for example in order for a top club to develop certain tactical approaches, it might need the best players available for some positions, and that implies buying power - BUT not the straight-forwards determination of ii) by i) that you are arguing for.

And the simplest example to see that are events that undeniably challenge the tactical status quo of the sport.
Dutch total football of the early 70s came not as a result of any accumulation of wealth, but rather a certain change of perception on how to understand space.

Fast forward to 2008 when Pep was appointed at Barca:
How was football back then? It had reached a stage where defense was primarily important (remember all the Liverpool-Chelsea CL semis, and AC Milan dominating), denying space to the opponent was paramount, and mistakes could cost you (maybe the only exception was Utd with Rooney-CR7-Teves playing more attacking minded football).
And then Pep came and did something completely different: he introduced different principles and overly asserted that attacking is more important than defending.
He is definitely IMO right up there along with Herrera, Shankly, Michels, Cruyff, Sachi, just because he changed the sport.
His influence reverberating into what followed Barca 08-12, and until right now: his own work at Bayern-City, Spain NT, Germany NT, the new generation of German coaches: Tuchel, Flick, Nagelsman, Ten Haag etc etc.
But not only in his followers/people inspired by him, but his opponents as well: Mourinho had to create a RM that had to score 120 goals to win La Liga, totally against his liking.
And of course a genuine contestor to Pep's football was created: Klopp's gegenpressing (I consider Klopp the only person who have managed to beat Pep with a different football philosophy)

Now that evolution changed the rules of the game if you look back to the summer of '08 and compare: clearly teams nowadays cannot play like Mou's Chelsea of 04-08, or Benitez's Liverpool or Anceloti's Milan. The 'attackingness' of teams nowadays cannot be contained so easily, and despite the fact that there are still Simeones and Atleticos around, they are becoming less and less. It is the past that is superseded.
The explosion of goals scored since 2008 attests to that, rather than the accumulation of wealth to the top of the pyramid

 

[BarcaOG]

And there is a factor in club's football: today the difference in wealth is bigger.
Barca and RM in 2010 or 2015 were way richer than bottom-table teams in 1970 or 1990.

In 80s or 90s, it was impossible to statpad 11:1 agsinst Getafe, which CR7 was often doing.
Or scoring 4-6 goals on almost every home La liga match (Barca).

So, imo, a far better indicator shouldn't be La liga matches, but CL matches agsinst top Europen teams or NT matches (where there is no money to buy better teammates like at Real and Barca).

People will get offended, but on those levels, Messi has been dissapointing since 2012.
And especially after 2015, with iirc 1 goal on away KO matches in 5 years (Chelsea?)

On an NT level, iirc, Messi has never scored a goal from an open play in his whole career, lol (counting both World cups and Copa Americas).

People will now reply: Messi's Argentina sucked.
And Barca sucked after Xavi and Iniesta.

All in all, Messi's carreer has some hot and cold facts:
Hot:
1. always dominating La liga, mostly against weakwer teams
2. CL domination in 2009, 2011, 2015

Bad:
1. NT career
2. Zero NT KO stages goals in his career (without penalties)
3. Atrocius CL record for Barca in away CL matches after 2015, or even after 2015

5 years ago, for me, Messi was an undisputed GOAT.
But today, I don't have a GOAT anymore.

Both Messi, Maradona and Pele (and even CR7) have their pros and cons.

agreed....ive seen messi fuck up and not deliver way too much in the last years. i also used to back him as the unmistakable goat. not anymore.

 

[JohnN]

I don't get the logic about the goat discussion...

How can a player be "losing points" because he didn't stop at the top of his powers. I mean leo reached a level for at least an 8 year span that other players haven't, ever. And secondly he kept, if not that level, but a pretty close to that, for 15 years. No one has ever come close to that.
In comparison to that, maradona's top level ended in a heartbeat. Leo is just held to impossible standards by Barca fans. Everyone else has accepted him as de facto no.1, not because of his last years, but because of the longevity and ceiling of his top years.