Lionel Messi - v7

[JohnN]

Were those really bad though? Guess you could say they were not GOAT level if you simply base your judgment on his KO goal stats but that's you being lazy. Needs more words

I mean, you're calling his NT career bad when the dude is the all time leading scorer in Conmebol, and where he played mainly as a CAM or False 9 PLUS

he received the World Cup 2008 Standout Player Award along with the Gold medal +

Copa America

2007 Final and Best Young Player Award
2015 Final and Tournament MVP Award (which he rejected)
2016 Final + 3 x man of the match in both QF and SF and Final + 2nd highest scorer and highest assist provider and that's despite missing out all the early stages due to a lumbar injury picked up in the early rounds
Here's what the winning side Chile Coach said:
Juan Antonio Pizzi: "I think the best player ever played today here in the United States."

WC:

2010: Q. Final _ loss to zzzzze Germanz
2014: Final + Golden Boot best player of the Tournament with top stats in chances created, dribbling runs, deliveries into the penalty area and through-balls in the entire competition + he was 3rd topscoarer
2018: R16 lost to the frenchies who went out to went it all (yeah so, guess that makes the Griezzz the better player mmmhhh

better I think look at the big picture. and also include his record assists and pre-assists to just get a glimpse of his perfs as playmaker and scorer

here's a compil of his goals [3 or 4 are missing I think]

there's a few open play World Cup ones vs Nigeria and Iran but even if most were in friendlies, can't deny the difficulty level of the golazzos in there

Thanks for providing so much insight and perspective in the funniest and most light hearted way possible!! Cheers!

 

[Birdy]

^Indeed. He's not perfect in everything, which makes the GOAT debate open, but he's unfairly criticized as if he's been complete failure for argies, while Maradona gets too much credit for that one time performance, while being overall worse in terms of consistency and among much better partners throughout his NT career.

Criticism for Argentina's failures comes usually from people who have not yet understood the nature of International KO tournaments:
By far the most unpredictable and unfair in many respect competitions.
Teams have no real chemistry, they have not trained together for a long time, the most attacking sides are destines to miss out (guess why? It's always easier and needs less constructive labor to defend than to attack), and the amount of luck needed to win it is insane..

And then on the top of that you have the myth of Maradona taking Argentina by the hand and leading it to glory days acting as a benchmark for Messi.
Simply idiotic.

 

[BBZ8800]

You always go on about this era being so easy to score in and '80/90s so difficult'.

Barca from 91-94 scored more than did last season and when Ronaldo arrived for one season scored over 100. Barca with best ever team and best ever attacking player at times in best ever front three have been scoring probably average of 105-110.

Barca went from scoring 76 in 07/08 to 105 when Pep took over and Messi exploded... that was not due to some huge sudden decline in that year.

Real when signed Ronaldo went from scoring 84 to 105.

You put far too much emphasis on poor competition as if it was much more difficult in past.

I don't have time, but I would make a list of top 50 scorers per season from top clubs since 1980 till today.

I guess that 30-35 top places out of top50 would be: Messi 10 times, Cr7 10 times, Lewa, Suarez etc

Players from the last 10 years would hold 60-80% top50 places from the last 40 years.

Either this is the best generation of scorers ever (lol) or the numbers are inflated imo 20-40% in the current era.

Just remember that in 1994 when the best team in the world back then, AC Milan (who won 4:0 against Barca in the CL final that year) had 36:15 goal difference and won Seria A title with 36 goals scored.

Goals scored by CL winners in their leagues.
Look at the trend.
It is not a coincidence.

Epl, La liga, Seria A, Bundesliga.
On larger samples, all big teams are scoring more and more in their countries because the difference between top 2-3 teams and the rest is larger due to more money from sponsors in the internet era.

Thus, attackers from these teams are scoring more and more.
Fucking Suarez and Lewa surely aren't better tjan all strikers from the past like Ronaldo9, Van Basten, Batistuta, Ruud, Henry, Trezeguet, Crespo, Makaay.

Every top attacker from the last 10 years look like one of the best players in a history.

So, both Messi's and Cr7's numbers are inflated a lot compared to top attackers from 20-30-40 years ago.

2020 Bayern 100
2019 Liverpool 89
2018 Real 94
2017 Real 106
2016 Real 110
2015 Barcelona 110
2014 Real 104
2013 Bayern 98 (34)
2011 Barcelona 95
2010 Inter 75 (38)
2009 Barcelona 105
2008 Man Utd 80 (38)
2007 Milan 57 (38)
2005 Liverpool 52 (38 matches)
2003 Milan 55 (34)
2002 Real 69 (38)
2001 Bayern 62 (34)
2000 Real 58 (38)
1999 Man Utd 80 (38)
1998 Real 63 (38)
1997 Borussia 63 (34)
1996 Juventus 58 (34)
1993 Marseille 72, (36)
1994 Milan 36 (34)

 

[Birdy]

2020 Bayern 100
2019 Liverpool 89
2018 Real 94
2017 Real 106
2016 Real 110
2015 Barcelona 110
2014 Real 104
2013 Bayern 98 (34)
2011 Barcelona 95
2010 Inter 75 (38)
2009 Barcelona 105
2008 Man Utd 80 (38)
2007 Milan 57 (38)
2005 Liverpool 52 (38 matches)
2003 Milan 55 (34)
2002 Real 69 (38)
2001 Bayern 62 (34)
2000 Real 58 (38)
1999 Man Utd 80 (38)
1998 Real 63 (38)
1997 Borussia 63 (34)
1996 Juventus 58 (34)
1993 Marseille 72, (36)
1994 Milan 36 (34)

That list assumes CL winner every year was
i) best team
ii) most prolific team

which is huge LOL
and by the way you implicitly assume it's wrong by not including Chelsea 2012.

If there is something to be noted is that after Pep's revolution in 2009 the numbers change upwards for all.

 

[Gnidrologist]

So Milan was Atletico Madrid those days.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi has knockout goals from open play in the copa america

Name those matches and goals

 

[BBZ8800]

That list assumes CL winner every year was
i) best team
ii) most prolific team

which is huge LOL
and by the way you implicitly assume it's wrong by not including Chelsea 2012.

If there is something to be noted is that after Pep's revolution in 2009 the numbers change upwards for all.

On larger sample it evens out, about best teams winning it.
How come that in 98, 00 or 03 5th placed teams like RM, Milan or Liverpool were winning CLs?

Do you know why?
Because RM and Juve weren't that richer than their league opponents.

Also, how was it possible for RM and Barca to end 5th back then?
Because they weren't that richer so every league had 4-5 big clubs.

Also, look at how Juve, Bayern, Psg, Barca-Real have like 10 league titles in a row.
Why?
Because big clubs got way richer.
The gulf in power is insane.

That is creating 6:0 or 7:1 wins, 100 points records and 100+ goals seasons.
This is why all big clubs are breaking all records in all big leagues.
And why all top players from today look like best players ever.

Stats are seriously screwed in the last 10 years.

Fucking Neymar, Suarez and Lewa are better than R9, Van Basten and Batistuta.
Suarez always had problems with controlling the ball.

Please.
That is hillarious.

 

[JohnN]

I don't have time, but I would make a list of top 50 scorers per season from top clubs since 1980 till today.

I guess that 30-35 top places out of top50 would be: Messi 10 times, Cr7 10 times, Lewa, Suarez etc

Players from the last 10 years would hold 60-80% top50 places from the last 40 years.

Either this is the best generation of scorers ever (lol) or the numbers are inflated imo 20-40% in the current era.

Just remember that in 1994 when the best team in the world back then, AC Milan (who won 4:0 against Barca in the CL final that year) had 36:15 goal difference and won Seria A title with 36 goals scored.

Goals scored by CL winners in their leagues.
Look at the trend.
It is not a coincidence.

Epl, La liga, Seria A, Bundesliga.
On larger samples, all big teams are scoring more and more in their countries because the difference between top 2-3 teams and the rest is larger due to more money from sponsors in the internet era.

Thus, attackers from these teams are scoring more and more.
Fucking Suarez and Lewa surely aren't better tjan all strikers from the past like Ronaldo9, Van Basten, Batistuta, Ruud, Henry, Trezeguet, Crespo, Makaay.

Every top attacker from the last 10 years look like one of the best players in a history.

So, both Messi's and Cr7's numbers are inflated a lot compared to top attackers from 20-30-40 years ago.

2020 Bayern 100
2019 Liverpool 89
2018 Real 94
2017 Real 106
2016 Real 110
2015 Barcelona 110
2014 Real 104
2013 Bayern 98 (34)
2011 Barcelona 95
2010 Inter 75 (38)
2009 Barcelona 105
2008 Man Utd 80 (38)
2007 Milan 57 (38)
2005 Liverpool 52 (38 matches)
2003 Milan 55 (34)
2002 Real 69 (38)
2001 Bayern 62 (34)
2000 Real 58 (38)
1999 Man Utd 80 (38)
1998 Real 63 (38)
1997 Borussia 63 (34)
1996 Juventus 58 (34)
1993 Marseille 72, (36)
1994 Milan 36 (34)

This is not showing a progressive trend towards more goals. This shows that after Barca's football, everything changed, if you want to make conclusions.

 

[KingLeo10]

Name those matches and goals

2007 QF
2007 SF
2016 QF

I'm usually not bothered by your posts on football anymore but this kind of blatant lying to push an agenda is unacceptable.

 

[MagIX]

So you can only dominate the CL when you win it. Noted.

Messi won the CL in 2009, 2011 and 2015 = he dominated, goat.
All the other years (15 years?) without winning the CL: he is shit, overrated.

 

[MagIX]

Talking about Messi and NT....

Not so good, but not so bad either.
He reached 4 finals and he lost 4 finals.... with a little more luck he could win one
But let's say he won the WC final, Higuain scored that goal and Argentina won the World Cup...
Would he suddenly be the undisputed goat because he won the WC ? i.e., would the valuation, would the performance of a player change totally
because one of his team-mates instead of missing a goal has scored a goal ?
For me, despite having scored 4 goals and reached the final (or even he had won the final), his WC 2014 wasn't as good as his performance in WC 2010.
WC 2010 Messi was on fire, a pleasure to watch him play, he played brilliantly, without having scored a single goal.

 

[BBZ8800]

This is not showing a progressive trend towards more goals. This shows that after Barca's football, everything changed, if you want to make conclusions.

After Barca's football, Juve/Bayern/Psg started to win 10 league titles in a row and brraking all records.

Bayern is buying every single talented player from their league.
Juve and Psg more or less the same.

Their league is their little playground.
Now go back to 90s when Milan-Juve-Inter-Roma-Lazio were all equally rich and strong.

Or Barca-Real-Valencia-Deportivo.

 

[Messigician]

Talking about Messi and NT....

Not so good, but not so bad either.
He reached 4 finals and he lost 4 finals.... with a little more luck he could win one
But let's say he won the WC final, Higuain scored that goal and Argentina won the World Cup...
Would he suddenly be the undisputed goat because he won the WC ? i.e., would the valuation, would the performance of a player change totally
because one of his team-mates instead of missing a goal has scored a goal ?
For me, despite having scored 4 goals and reached the final (or even he had won the final), his WC 2014 wasn't as good as his performance in WC 2010.
WC 2010 Messi was on fire, a pleasure to watch him play, he played brilliantly, without having scored a single goal.

Yes it does and fuck Higuain for ruining Messi's legacy depsite the good he contributed

 

[BBZ8800]

2007 QF
2007 SF
2016 QF

I'm usually not bothered by your posts on football anymore but this kind of blatant lying to push an agenda is unacceptable.

Lol.
I didn't check Copa america's stats for some time.

So:
1. No World cup KO goals for Messi in his career
2. One Copa America goal in KO matches in the last 13 years
3. 1 CL ko away goal since 2015

No offense, opponents in a debate about Messi as Goat have plenty of facts against him, once when you step out of La Liga and Camp Nou

 

[MagIX]

Lol.
I didn't check Copa america's stats for some time.

So:
1. No World cup KO goals for Messi in his career
2. One Copa America goal in KO matches in the last 13 years
3. 1 CL ko away goal since 2015

No offense, opponents in a debate about Messi as Goat have plenty of facts against him, once when you step out of La Liga and Camp Nou

KO matches in WC (without 2006 WC) : 7 matches, 0 goals, 4 assists
KO matches in Copa America (last 13 years): 9 matches, 2 goals, 9 assists.
CL KO away matches since 2015: 11 matches, 3 goals (1x penalty), 0 assists.

In away matches, not only Messi, but Barcelona as team has a problem since the pep era.
I don't know why. Probably the mentality, our tactics,.... in general we are not good in matches where the winner is decided in 180 minutes, not good in matches where the gladiator mentality is crucial, where running and bleeding is crucial.