Lionel Messi - v7

[BBZ8800]

The system that was executed perfectly required players like xavi, iniesta, busquets, Alves, Messi, etc, at their best. You cannot ignore that. That peak doesn't last for ever.

1. tier no1: our system paired with GOAT players in their prime: Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
Even in that scenario, with each new year, the opponents would get closer and closer.
So, even with a magical potion, where players wouldn't age at all, hypotetically: our system with Messi-Xavi-Busi-Iniesta-Alves would produce better results in the first 2-3 seasons than in a season 7 or 13.
Because due to human's nature where the opponents are evolving and learning all the time.
So, my point: even with Messi-Xavi and Pep, it would be harder in Pep's 7th season than in a 2nd season.
This is exactly what Cruyff was talking about.

2. now, when you accept that the opponents will always get closer and closer UNLESS if you are also changing, evolving and improving, that leaves us with a question: how good a system from 2011 is WITHOUT Messi, Xavi, Busi, Iniesta, Alves and with far weaker players in our team?

This is why I have said:
Pep's system is fine.
But it needs to be updated with some modern tendencies like: more athleticism for 2020, more pace, more stamina, mentally stronger players, some leaders, some fighting spirit for cold-rainy nights at Stoke and Anfield etc.

So, as some posters say: I am not asking for our team turning into a team with 11 Fellainis.
I would just like to see Pep's Barca with slightly more pace, height, strength, a fighting spirit, a true No9, more longshots, more headers, more true corners etc.

Rijkaard's team's physique and a 3-way attacking (possession, counters, headers) & Pep's tactics and movement & Klopp's modern ideas and athleticism.

 

[FCB1987]

Didn't we field a classic BBZ team at Anfield anyway?

Did we play 442 instead of 433 as he's always been calling for? Yes
Did we have a bunch of tall players? Yes, Rakitic, Busquets, Pique, Lenglet, Ter Stegen, and Suarez are all at least six feet
Did we have a tall physical striker who can score headers? Yes, Suarez is six feet tall and scores headers when he gets high crosses
Did we have a midfield thug? Yep, Vidal
Did we have a more balanced manager instead of a tiki taka Cruyffista? Yes, Valverde who BBZ has praised countless times

 

[Pedro]

[tw]1157416321782550529[/tw]

[tw]1157419065973051392[/tw]

 

[CatalinR10]

3 months away from Arg games ? Good new for Barca .

Did he even have any games to play in the next 3 months anyways ?

 

[Vilarrubi]

3 months away from Arg games ? Good new for Barca .

Did he even have any games to play in the next 3 months anyways ?

If it’s not 3 months from now then it could be 3 months from the first game, which is a 3am (European time) kick off against Chile in September. Then Mexico and Germany, all pointless friendlies. So the jokes on them...... rested Messi chilling in Barcelona not travelling or getting jet lag. Cheers CONMEBOL

 

[kattanib]

Even if he gets band 3 months from Barcelona as well as per the tweet, which is unlikely due to different football federations or whatever they are called, this will give us a chance to adapt to post Messi area sooner .. Griezman will take his place

 

[Vilarrubi]

Even if he gets band 3 months from Barcelona as well as per the tweet, which is unlikely due to different football federations or whatever they are called, this will give us a chance to adapt to post Messi area sooner .. Griezman will take his place

It doesn’t say that, it clearly says internationally.

The quote on the end is just journalists trying to make the report sound more dramatic.

“Will this decision carry over and affect his play at the club level with Barcelona?”

Yes, he’ll be better because he’ll have more rest.

 

[Potroh]

I would just like to see Pep's Barca with slightly more pace, height, strength, a fighting spirit, a true No9, more longshots, more headers, more true corners etc.

The same old poem once again...
Well, no shame on quoting the classics, the slight problem starts when they quote themselves (perhaps a special royalty sum should be introduced in the forum...)

On the footballing part though:
Piquet is 1.94 and is a really good chap with his head.
When Umtiti is playing (and in health & form) he is one of the best with his head in the world.
Both (and Lenglet) always take part in accomplishing each and every corner, that not too many teams can claim on the same level.

Long-shots I agree with, but it's not the true Barca style and rarely successful.

The "fighting spirit" is an anti-professional chewing gum, it usually doesn't depend on "individual warriors", rather it's admired as being a collective team-effort.
If 2-3 "special fighters" try to play an aggressive (hence regressive) type of the game, it can easily just turn against the overall style and game-flow of a given team.

(Like Suarez is really an aggressive fighter, but many promising attacks (highly skilled and technical ones) get stopped on his recent technical flaws or being offside most of the time, which clearly shows that mere "fighting spirit" can hardly ever substitute the true skilled solutions).

 

[Kul_z]

1. tier no1: our system paired with GOAT players in their prime: Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
Even in that scenario, with each new year, the opponents would get closer and closer.
So, even with a magical potion, where players wouldn't age at all, hypotetically: our system with Messi-Xavi-Busi-Iniesta-Alves would produce better results in the first 2-3 seasons than in a season 7 or 13.
Because due to human's nature where the opponents are evolving and learning all the time.
So, my point: even with Messi-Xavi and Pep, it would be harder in Pep's 7th season than in a 2nd season.
This is exactly what Cruyff was talking about.

2. now, when you accept that the opponents will always get closer and closer UNLESS if you are also changing, evolving and improving, that leaves us with a question: how good a system from 2011 is WITHOUT Messi, Xavi, Busi, Iniesta, Alves and with far weaker players in our team?

This is why I have said:
Pep's system is fine.
But it needs to be updated with some modern tendencies like: more athleticism for 2020, more pace, more stamina, mentally stronger players, some leaders, some fighting spirit for cold-rainy nights at Stoke and Anfield etc.

So, as some posters say: I am not asking for our team turning into a team with 11 Fellainis.
I would just like to see Pep's Barca with slightly more pace, height, strength, a fighting spirit, a true No9, more longshots, more headers, more true corners etc.

Rijkaard's team's physique and a 3-way attacking (possession, counters, headers) & Pep's tactics and movement & Klopp's modern ideas and athleticism.

So, with magical potion where players wouldnt age at all, everybody would learn and evolve, but prime messi, xavi, iniesta, busi and alves wouldnt? Seriously, you are a clown

 

[Messi983]

He won't have to travel around the world in September and October, great news.

 

[BBZ8800]

So, with magical potion where players wouldnt age at all, everybody would learn and evolve, but prime messi, xavi, iniesta, busi and alves wouldnt? Seriously, you are a clown

If we would evolve, we would get a new advantsge.
That is the point=when the opponents close the gap, you need new some changes and new ideas.
Yet people are offering a denial answer for years: Pep's tactics weren't figured out.
We just stopped executing it perfectly due to stupid coaches.
About Pep, you'll see how his team will start to win less points in his 3rd and 4th season, unless if he runs away sooner.

A question for you:
With a magical potion, you are our coach in 2012/13.
What changes would you make in order to:
1. Keep the basics from 2008-2012
2. And to bring some new ideas and strengths into our team?
Further, fast forward to 2020: how would you improve Pep's ideas from 2012 today with current players?

Remember, you are both the coach and a sporting director.

 

[FCB1987]

BBZ, you keep dipping into the Kool-Aid but you don't even know the flavor.

 

[JohnN]

1. tier no1: our system paired with GOAT players in their prime: Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
Even in that scenario, with each new year, the opponents would get closer and closer.
So, even with a magical potion, where players wouldn't age at all, hypotetically: our system with Messi-Xavi-Busi-Iniesta-Alves would produce better results in the first 2-3 seasons than in a season 7 or 13.
Because due to human's nature where the opponents are evolving and learning all the time.
So, my point: even with Messi-Xavi and Pep, it would be harder in Pep's 7th season than in a 2nd season.
This is exactly what Cruyff was talking about.

2. now, when you accept that the opponents will always get closer and closer UNLESS if you are also changing, evolving and improving, that leaves us with a question: how good a system from 2011 is WITHOUT Messi, Xavi, Busi, Iniesta, Alves and with far weaker players in our team?

1. Except for the first year, which comes as a shock and people haven't figured out how you are playing, there is no reason to think teams didn't evolve by the second season and still failed time and time again. This is not only due to the system, but the goat generation that played it. You have to address the simple example about Messi. Since 2007, how many players have actually managed to stop him 1v1, when at his best. That is 12 years now.

2. I agree. That system without those players is useless. There is no point in trying to copy it now. We aren't copying it though. We have been playing something different for a long time.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Every system will always depend on the players that are playing in it, no way around it because players aren't robots.

I don't think anyone would expect to 1:1 recreate 2011 Barca because of course that was only possible with these players and Pep as coach. I also don't think anybody would be against a little bit more physicality, a little bit more direct counter attacking etc because after all the Barca or Ajax "style" doesn't forbid any of that, but it shouldn't become the main focus. Both teams had great succes with different team setups and even slightly different formations so it's not like 4-3-3 false 9 maximum possession is the only way.

But then again the latest "innovations" at Barca pretty much had only one element of that left and it was possession. Ever since Pep left the team got worse in many key points of the OG Ajax style, passing, movement, pressing etc Lucho was on his way to sacrifice the midfield completely for MSN to carry the team and under Valverde everything got way too slow and predictable as the tactic pretty much is just "pass to Messi" with slow build and passing. So between what we've seen the past years and the glory days of Pep there is a lot room for improvement that doesn't automatically has to result in playing with nothing but short technical guys and having 80% possession. I'm sure many people would be enjoying Barca games a lot more if the team played more like current City or last years Ajax, both weren't copies of 2011 Barca.

 

[Potroh]

If we would evolve, we would get a new advantage.

Wise sentence...
And this gentleman has 5958 similar (and lengthy) messages to his credit...

If a single msg only needs 15 minutes, then he has spent 1489 hours on them...