Lionel Messi - v7

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

4-0 PSG
3-0 Juve
3-0 Roma
4-0 Liverpool
8-2 Bayern

5 humilitations from 5 different clubs. Which club will be next ? City ?

This shows we need to change. ImO we should buy new (worldclass) players and try to adapt Messi in that system. If it doesnt fit he need to leave next season.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Messi might have to open 2 museums when he retires. One for his achievements and the other for his humliations

 

[ItachiXXX]

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2014428--barcelona-vs-bayern/

115 KM for Barca versus 111 KM for Pep's Bayern in the 3-0.

Superstar talent + effort makes you near unbeatable. They had 0 targets on goal the 90 mins.

Funny after checking some of the finals, the team that had the least distance covered won the finals. Surprised Picachu face

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Funny after checking some of the finals, the team that had the least distance covered won the finals. Surprised Picachu face

There are two things to dominate the other team:

1.) Running

2.) Skills

From 2008-12 our skills (fast passing, dribbling, ball control, football IQ) was very very high so we needed less 'Running' to destroy our oppenents. When the second point 'Skills' decrease you need to increase the first point 'Running'. From 2016-2020 we had less and less and less skills but didnt increase running so we get dominated from our opponents who have less skills than our players but a lot of more running. Do anyone think that Roma/Liverpool were better than us in terms of skills ? No. Aspect running ? YES. Thats why they humiliated us.

 

[JohnN]

...

@Sergei, Check this out. I found some out of concept screenshots too!!!! These are from a game against Real. We did pretty good then. Based on these screenshots and your method of analysis, we should have sold Messi after this game.

Image 1 - Lazy Messi

Image 2 - Lazy Messi again. This time we have the ball too!

Image 3 - Lazy Pedro - This shit is contagious

Image 4 - Messi dropping deep, he is next to Busquets for fuck sake. What the hell is he doing there?

Image 5 - Messi dropping deep again. (After this play we scored the second)


We can agree he is slower and as a result his dribbling has taken a hit.
Also, his work-rate has dropped, since he is thirty fucking three years old and always had stamina issues.
He has no clear position on this team and is a tactical nightmare for ignorant managers.

But why the hell do you feel entitled enough to say he is lazy is beyond me.

 

[Ritchie]

The quality of this forum is going down...

Most of the users can't even discern what the discussion is about. They think it's about Muller > Messi. .

FIFA 20 level.

Muller is flavour of the month because he's had a great season but he went badly off the boil for a couple of seasons himself when Bayern and Germany had a dip. He was terrible at the last Euros/World Cup and looked done at the top level.

Bayern are back on fire this season and he's back to his best. Almost as if even good players need a good team to operate in. Messi has his faults but he nearly carried an average team to a treble last season. In a cohesive team he can still do the business.

Put Messi in that Bayern team and he'd be flying and Muller in this Barca side and Muller would be just as hopeless as Griezmann.

 

[Ritchie]

We're not saying that. Griezmann and 10 other runners would have also lost but not lost this badly. The problem isn't just Messi. It's all amigos/non hard working players, which happens to include him at 33. I don't want us building a team around him going forward as he's too old for that.

It's a complete lack of legs in the side. Busquets, Vidal, Rakitic - these are all slow players who haven't got the energy or legs anymore. Roberto is a slouch. You can't carry that in a modern midfield. Suarez can't run. Messi has poor stamina. Come up against a fast side who are clinical and you get hammered which Barca have at this level for years now.

You need youthful energy and pace. Pep's team had it. You've got to run as hard as your opponent just to compete.

 

[MagIX]

Muller is flavour of the month because he's had a great season but he went badly off the boil for a couple of seasons himself when Bayern and Germany had a dip. He was terrible at the last Euros/World Cup and looked done at the top level.

Bayern are back on fire this season and he's back to his best. Almost as if even good players need a good team to operate in. Messi has his faults but he nearly carried an average team to a treble last season. In a cohesive team he can still do the business.

Put Messi in that Bayern team and he'd be flying and Muller in this Barca side and Muller would be just as hopeless as Griezmann.

+1

 

[serghei]

@Sergei, Check this out. I found some out of concept screenshots too!!!! These are from a game against Real. We did pretty good then. Based on these screenshots and your method of analysis, we should have sold Messi after this game.

Image 1 - Lazy Messi

Image 2 - Lazy Messi again. This time we have the ball too!

Image 3 - Lazy Pedro - This shit is contagious

Image 4 - Messi dropping deep, he is next to Busquets for fuck sake. What the hell is he doing there?

Image 5 - Messi dropping deep again. (After this play we scored the second)


We can agree he is slower and as a result his dribbling has taken a hit.
Also, his work-rate has dropped, since he is thirty fucking three years old and always had stamina issues.
He has no clear position on this team and is a tactical nightmare for ignorant managers.

But why the hell do you feel entitled enough to say he is lazy is beyond me.

The conditions are totally different. The reason is simple, against the 2011 Barca no team dared to commit men forward and play a high line, or they'd lose. Espanyol tried that to a point and lost 5-1 at their home ground. If current Bayern tried that, we would've beaten them easily. This washed up finished Barca could've scored 3-4 goals in the first half. Imagine what the 2011 team would do against that high line.

Because of this reason, we could get away with situations like Messi staying in offside more than the other players. We still had superiority, because teams would not dare press us. We were an un-press-able team back then so to speak. Forward players rarely had to drop and provide support, because we always had options to play.

This is not 2011 anymore, and we don't have the greatest team of all time.

 

[Givenchy]

if he stays around any longer he'll destroy his legacy here and will end up getting the hate Alba, Busi and Suarez are getting. leave now and the narrative is 'Barca failed Messi, Messi deserves better' blah blah blah.

Barto staying or going, we need to move on from this era of Barca. i can accept Messi walking around uninterested putting in low km vs Granada but in a CL quarter final? he's either totally finished stamina wise or he just doesn't care anymore and either way that means he has to leave. you can't justify his wages

 

[serghei]

As for Messi dropping deep, Guardiola used a fluid system. We had mechanisms in place which meant Messi's movements were picked up by Xavi and Iniesta or other players.

When Messi dropped deep, Iniesta would attack the space he left behind. Or Xavi. In that image you posted, Xavi occupies false 9 position left open by Messi and scores the 1st goal (not the 2nd).

Such refined mechanisms are missing from the current team. They are missing because we don't have a genius manager managing us, nor 2 of the all time greatest midfielders ever to play the game.

 

[JohnN]

The conditions are totally different. The reason is simple, against the 2011 Barca no team dared to commit men forward and play a high line, or they'd lose. Espanyol tried that to a point and lost 5-1 at their home ground. If current Bayern tried that, we would've beaten them easily.

Because of this reason, we could get away with situations like Messi staying in offside more than the other players. We still had superiority, because teams would dare press us. We were an un-press-able team back then so to speak.

This is not 2011 anymore, and we don't have the greatest midfield of all time.

Of course I know that and that is the answer I expected, so here comes my point:
Is Messi so different from back then (age adjusted answer please)
or
is all of the other players and the managers so shit compared to then.

Messi has played the same game since 2010. He has reinvented himself a couple of times. He has lost some abilities and gained some others.

But he was never, in no way shape or form a pressing or "make runs behind the defence all game long" machine. He pressed when he felt there was a chance, and made runs when he caught the defence sleeping and a good ball was about to come.

He knows how to play in a free position system. Drifting left, center, right or anywhere, depending on the game situation. As every other player in that team. There was just no fixed position per se.

And you constantly accuse him of four things.

1. He does not press - Which he never did.
2. He does not make runs behind the defence - Which he mostly did in his teens and since then a couple of times per game (with passers like Xavi and Iniesta providing).
3. He does not stick to his position and drops deep - Which is what all his game has been about since 2010.
4. He is to blame for the board keeping the other seniors and EV - Which is simply at best case scenario - unknown. And even if all that is true, that is not his responsibility, but the boards.

So you basically (except 4) don't just call out Messi a bad player overall now, but since 2010. That's my point.

 

[kattanib]

Of course I know that and that is the answer I expected, so here comes my point:
Is Messi so different from back then (age adjusted answer please)
or
is all of the other players and the managers so shit compared to then.

Messi has played the same game since 2010. He has reinvented himself a couple of times. He has lost some abilities and gained some others.

But he was never, in no way shape or form a pressing or "make runs behind the defence all game long" machine. He pressed when he felt there was a chance, and made runs when he caught the defence sleeping and a good ball was about to come.

He knows how to play in a free position system. Drifting left, center, right or anywhere, depending on the game situation. As every other player in that team. There was just no fixed position per se.

And you constantly accuse him of four things.

1. He does not press - Which he never did.
2. He does not make runs behind the defence - Which he mostly did in his teens and since then a couple of times per game (with passers like Xavi and Iniesta providing).
3. He does not stick to his position and drops deep - Which is what all his game has been about since 2010.
4. He is to blame for the board keeping the other seniors and EV - Which is simply at best case scenario - unknown. And even if all that is true, that is not his responsibility, but the boards.

So you basically (except 4) don't just call out Messi a bad player overall now but since 2010. That's my point.

That is a typical example of is the fault in me or in every other person but me? Tell me what do you think?

 

[JohnN]

That is a typical example of is the fault in me or in every other person but me? Tell me what do you think?

Why don't you tell me what do you think.
Am I making unfair points?

 

[KingLeo10]

And you constantly accuse him of four things.

1. He does not press - Which he never did.
2. He does not make runs behind the defence - Which he mostly did in his teens and since then a couple of times per game (with passers like Xavi and Iniesta providing).
3. He does not stick to his position and drops deep - Which is what all his game has been about since 2010.

He had the ability to make 120 dribbles in a CL season back then.
The ability to fold any left back or CB in the world if he put his mind to it.
Insane acceleration in short runs (physical prime)
Insane lateral movement and agility (best I've seen along with R10 prime)
A much stronger shot, especially from outside the box. He shot some rockets back then.

All of these things have faded and the shortcomings he already had in 2010 are that much more evident.

The only thing he's improved in since then is passing.