Lionel Messi - v7

[Batistuta9]

Messi of 2009-2013 is several levels better than the current Messi. 14/15 Messi came close to that level.

Any unbiased person will agree with that. However, the current Messi's decline is a lot less than the decline of the team from those years.

 

[kattanib]

Why don't you tell me what do you think.
Am I making unfair points?

Everyone takes part of the blame including Messi. His issue is mainly attitude and leadership + what he stands for and represents. Ability wise he isn?t an issue at all .. an underperforming Messi is the equivalent of a good normal attacker.

Messi is creating a hurdle against change since his voice and emotions greatly affect the morale of the dressing room. Also the team need someone to lead them and motivate them, to fire them up.

Its like two great human beings getting a divorce. Its not that one of them is awful, its just that the children are better off with a healthy divorce

 

[serghei]

Of course I know that and that is the answer I expected, so here comes my point:
Is Messi so different from back then (age adjusted answer please)
or
is all of the other players and the managers so shit compared to then.

Messi has played the same game since 2010. He has reinvented himself a couple of times. He has lost some abilities and gained some others.

Messi is worse at nearly everything except maybe set pieces, but that peak Barca team would be able to make it work with this Messi as well, because they were too good all over the field. It is true that Messi showed some of the same weakness, albeit not to this degree in my opinion.

So, I guess the answer is that if you'd have the greatest team around Messi, they could hide his weaknesses and would make even current Messi effective.

This only shows how stupid are the comments who said Messi carried Barca at that point . You showed this point very well.

But he was never, in no way shape or form a pressing or "make runs behind the defence all game long" machine. He pressed when he felt there was a chance, and made runs when he caught the defence sleeping and a good ball was about to come.

He knows how to play in a free position system. Drifting left, center, right or anywhere, depending on the game situation. As every other player in that team. There was just no fixed position per se.

And you constantly accuse him of four things.

1. He does not press - Which he never did.
2. He does not make runs behind the defence - Which he mostly did in his teens and since then a couple of times per game (with passers like Xavi and Iniesta providing).
3. He does not stick to his position and drops deep - Which is what all his game has been about since 2010.
4. He is to blame for the board keeping the other seniors and EV - Which is simply at best case scenario - unknown. And even if all that is true, that is not his responsibility, but the boards.

So you basically (except 4) don't just call out Messi a bad player overall now, but since 2010. That's my point.

Most of this is not true, or not true to the extent being made to appear here.

Messi pressed more during Pep. No doubt. Under no circumstances he ran 7 km in the decisive games. I remember he ran something like 10km in the final vs United on Wembley, that's like almost 50% more than vs Bayern. An enormous difference. So, yes, pressing was not his strong points, but he did ran more, no doubt.

He didn't make runs behind the defense because teams sat back vs us almost all the time out of fear of being humiliated. There was no space to run into. We had to constantly unlock teams because we were so dominant on the ball teams rarely used a high line or pressed us. When they did, Messi did runs no doubt. We were actually very good on the counterattack, but rarely got to show that side of us more often.

So, you're telling me that if he did some things that were feasible back then, when we had the greatest team and the greatest manager, then it's fine if he plays the same only worse, even though we lack all the things that made it work back then? And somehow it's the club's duty to assemble the greatest team around him so he can still do that and afford those luxuries?

Sorry, doesn't work that way. He needs to change, like the team did. It's easier to replace 33-35 year old Messi and change the dynamics of the team than to buy a whole team to hide his increasing flaws.

He had the ability to make 120 dribbles in a CL season back then.
The ability to fold any left back or CB in the world if he put his mind to it.
Insane acceleration in short runs (physical prime)
Insane lateral movement and agility (best I've seen along with R10 prime)
A much stronger shot, especially from outside the box. He shot some rockets back then.

All of these things have faded and the shortcomings he already had in 2010 are that much more evident.

The only thing he's improved in since then is passing.

And this. Offensively he was a different beast.

 

[Batistuta9]

The point I was trying to make is that you can't give him the freedom and lack of any defensive duties that he used to have ( even though he ran more when he at his prime) , because his output isn't at that level either ( Obviously it's still the best out there but you get the point)

In the current team, we can't afford him to not defend. We would barely able to match a team with all 11 players defending. That's why I do think it's best for both parties if he left.

It's our board's fault. Instead of relying on busquets, Vidal and rakitic to cover for Messi, we should have bought a midfield with players like fabinho, wijnaldum and Kante instead of coutinho and griezmann. We must have the most unathletic midfield in football. It's not like our current midfield has any creativity anyway.

 

[serghei]

In the current team, we can't afford him to not defend. We would barely able to match a team with all 11 players defending. That's why I do think it's best for both parties if he left.

It's our board's fault. Instead of relying on busquets, Vidal and rakitic to cover for Messi, we should have bought a midfield with players like fabinho, wijnaldum and Kante instead of coutinho and griezmann. We must have the most unathletic midfield in football. It's not like our current midfield has any creativity anyway.

Yea, no doubt some proper signings of players in their prime who could run and defend well, would've helped. We missed the train to make Messi's last few years more successful. Somewhere there was a combination that would've made sense, but the signings we made were the opposite of what was needed.

Now it's too late, and by the time we correct that, Messi will be finished. That's why it's better if he leaves for both parties.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Messi of 2009-2013 is several levels better than the current Messi. 14/15 Messi came close to that level.

Best Messi was 2011 Imo. Best I have ever seen. Only R9 comes close.

 

[Laplacian]

You guys need to understand Barcelona is not Atletico. Not even Atletico makes it work these days, and they're often found out when they defend too deep and don't try to press enough.

Perhaps they need 5 more years of teams taking advantage of Messi/Suarez's laziness to finally get the point?

4-0 PSG
3-0 Juve
3-0 Roma
4-0 Liverpool
8-2 Bayern

5 humilitations from 5 different clubs. Which club will be next ? City ?

This shows we need to change. ImO we should buy new (worldclass) players and try to adapt Messi in that system. If it doesnt fit he need to leave next season.

It was so obvious we needed a rebuild after Juve, painfully obvious after Roma. Yet some of these guys still want to buy an entirely new team just so they can allow a 34-35 year old Messi to walk around the pitch, attempting his little dribbles from midfield like he's still 25. Are these guys Barcelona fans or Messi fans? I'm stumped.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Perhaps they need 5 more years of teams taking advantage of Messi/Suarez's laziness to finally get the point?



It was so obvious we needed a rebuild after Juve, painfully obvious after Roma. Yet some of these guys still want to buy an entirely new team just so they can allow a 34-35 year old Messi to walk around the pitch, attempting his little dribbles from midfield like he's still 25. Are these guys Barcelona fans or Messi fans? I'm stumped.

True after the humilations against PSG and Juve Barca should have rebuild. But even Roma and Liverpool couldnt wake up them. They needed also Bayern humilation WTF.

Albert Einstein "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[JohnN]

This only shows how stupid are the comments who said Messi carried Barca at that point . You showed this point very well.

You are talking about Pep Barca or current Barca? No one said he carried Pep's Barca.

And somehow it's the club's duty to assemble the greatest team around him so he can still do that and afford those luxuries?

No it's not. Who said that? But they could have assembled a competitive team at least. Not Rakitic, Coutinho, Paulinho, Dembele, Vidal, etc..

Sorry, doesn't work that way. He needs to change, like the team did.

How can a 33yo change for the better? Only thing he could do would be to play less so he can give more at a shorter time span. That's a logical thing to ask. Not 9km from a guy that could barely do that at 28.

It's easier to replace 33-35 year old Messi and change the dynamics of the team than to buy a whole team to hide his increasing flaws.

If it's one or the other of course it's easier. But why do you only provide two options? I mean it's either drop Messi, keep everyone else and we good or keep Messi and sell everyone else?

We could, for example, get rid of: Vidal, Rakitic, Suarez, Umtiti and play some of our younger players. Heck, perhaps buy someone.

 

[malvolio]

@JohnN: you look like a sensible guy. hopefully you won't lose your patience by trying to be reasonable with some of this guys like serghei.

it still baffles me why people are so hateful towards messi, when he brought us so much and was never a dead weight to this team. even at 33 he is head and shoulders above all players in our squad and basically the reason we could even talk about having a chance at la liga or cl.

 

[Porque]

There's another option with Messi. We could also choose to condense his game.

He's not getting younger and his continuous huge failures internationally for club and country should lead to some self evaluation- both teams are built around him.

By condensing the game I mean that rather asking him to increase his output from 7km to 9-10km over 90, we instead get him to increase his output to 7km over 60-70 minutes and then sub him.

He might not like it, but whether he admits it or not, he is in his twilight and needs to adapt accordingly.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

There's another option with Messi. We could also choose to condense his game.

He's not getting younger and his continuous huge failures internationally for club and country should lead to some self evaluation- both teams are built around him.

By condensing the game I mean that rather asking him to increase his output from 7km to 9-10km over 90, we instead get him to increase his output to 7km over 60-70 minutes and then sub him.

He might not like it, but whether he admits it or not, he is in his twilight and needs to adapt accordingly.

Good point! We could consider that option.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

There's another option with Messi. We could also choose to condense his game.

He's not getting younger and his continuous huge failures internationally for club and country should lead to some self evaluation- both teams are built around him.

By condensing the game I mean that rather asking him to increase his output from 7km to 9-10km over 90, we instead get him to increase his output to 7km over 60-70 minutes and then sub him.

He might not like it, but whether he admits it or not, he is in his twilight and needs to adapt accordingly.

When was the last time that Messi was subbed in a offical match ? Pep said in his biography that he came with a spoon to the next training once he subbed off Messi wthout asking him and since then I never see that any coach took him off if in a match beside injuries.

 

[Marshall D Teach]

Perhaps they need 5 more years of teams taking advantage of Messi/Suarez's laziness to finally get the point?



It was so obvious we needed a rebuild after Juve, painfully obvious after Roma. Yet some of these guys still want to buy an entirely new team just so they can allow a 34-35 year old Messi to walk around the pitch, attempting his little dribbles from midfield like he's still 25. Are these guys Barcelona fans or Messi fans? I'm stumped.

We need a new team regardless of whether Messi stays.

There's another option with Messi. We could also choose to condense his game.

He's not getting younger and his continuous huge failures internationally for club and country should lead to some self evaluation- both teams are built around him.

By condensing the game I mean that rather asking him to increase his output from 7km to 9-10km over 90, we instead get him to increase his output to 7km over 60-70 minutes and then sub him.

He might not like it, but whether he admits it or not, he is in his twilight and needs to adapt accordingly.

Yes. If he can't run for 90 mins, give him 30-60.

I like the idea of Messi as a Xavi 2015 esque impact sub. Doubt he'd be willing to do it though.

 

[JohnN]

@JohnN: you look like a sensible guy. hopefully you won't lose your patience by trying to be reasonable with some of this guys like serghei.

it still baffles me why people are so hateful towards messi, when he brought us so much and was never a dead weight to this team. even at 33 he is head and shoulders above all players in our squad and basically the reason we could even talk about having a chance at la liga or cl.

I don't believe people here just hate on Messi for no reason. I get some of the points but it all gets really confusing when politics come into play.
Because it's a big reason for the criticism and it all gets mixed up with playstyle, laziness, dictatorship, keeping friends, dictating transfers and squads and managers.
I mean it's getting out of hand and I would like purely sporting arguments, which Sergei does provide. But then he goes on and blames almost every single thing on Messi, which baffles me.