Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi V2

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Put some burn cream on it bro. I know you're seething inside right now

No no dude im a neutral, i criticise Cristiano a lot too and praise Messi when its right....

Anyways, i think we should close this as i doubt i can convince you guys and you me

 

[KingLeo10]

Spain.....

Otherwise i agree i expected more in many WC games from him but in every other competition he was able to deliver when his team needed him...

Like he delivered for Juve with CL exits to Porto and Lyon, while RM win for fun in CL without him?

Pipe down

 

[M3ls]

What M3ls is doing is harping on a few bad games by Messi in CL, when if you look at the other side of the picture, he's decided huge CL games mostly by himself. Some examples.

Dagger goal vs United in CL final 09
4 goals vs Arsenal in CL QF 10
Double at the Bernabeu vs RM in CL SF 11
Winning goal vs United in CL final 11
First two goals in CL comeback against Milan in 13
Double vs Bayern in CL SF 15
Double v Pool in CL SF 19 to give us 3-0 lead

And these are just the biggest CL games he's decided. Plenty others that weren't this huge but he was decisive for us.

When Pep was in the team, everything was fine. Messi ran enough.

Then there was a period when he started to get lazy. Luis Enrique came in - with whom he had a conflict - and I'm sure the reason was Leo's lazy play without the ball. They found a solution and came to an agreement. So, under Luis Enrique in the 2015, 2016 seasons was quite effective without the ball, but then he started being lazy again.

 

[KingLeo10]

When Pep was in the team, everything was fine. Messi ran enough.

Then there was a period when he started to get lazy. Luis Enrique came in - with whom he had a conflict - and I'm sure the reason was Leo's lazy play without the ball. So, under Luis Enrique in the 2015, 2016 seasons was quite effective without the ball, but then he started being lazy again.

He also got older and older post 2016.

His physical prime began in 2007-2008, and for most footballers, it lasts about a decade, if lucky.

He's never been the hardest working footballer out there (I don't think any of his fans claim that), but singling him out as the reason for us losing while ignoring the even bigger sample size of games he's won for us is my main gripe.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Like he delivered for Juve with CL exits to Porto and Lyon, while RM win for fun in CL without him?

Pipe down

Ok cause you quoted me i will give one last answer about this topic...

Against Lyon he scored 2 so giving him the fault is wrong. Against Porto he was bad yeah but can happen

And Real won with him 4 cls in 5 years, 3 in a row and spread his winner mentality there so they can also win without him in a lower rate. But 3 cls in a row? Damn, that will never happen again...

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

And I'm not arguing that Messi is individually the best player in History. I don't think he should have been hard pressed to work without the ball, but he should have been running without the ball at least at the level of today's 37 year old Lewandowski. A team in modern football cannot be effective - especially against top clubs in playoff games - if your one player is literally running less than 7km per match. That's insane.

The thing is Messi's best matches in cl were the matches where he ran a lot 😬

 

[KingLeo10]

Ok cause you quoted me i will give one last answer about this topic...

Against Lyon he scored 2 so giving him the fault is wrong. Against Porto he was bad yeah but can happen

And Real won with him 4 cls in 5 years, 3 in a row and spread his winner mentality there so they can also win without him in a lower rate. But 3 cls in a row? Damn, that will never happen again...

Yeah, he really needed to spread his winning mentality to the likes of Ramos, Casillas, Kroos who were World Champions without Bumnaldo

Keep seething

 

[M3ls]

He also got older and older post 2016.

His physical prime began in 2007-2008, and for most footballers, it lasts about a decade, if lucky.

He's never been the hardest working footballer out there (I don't think any of his fans claim that), but singling him out as the reason for us losing while ignoring the even bigger sample size of games he's won for us is my main gripe.

It's not the only one I'm highlighting. But his lazy play without the ball is the ONE of the main reasons for our problems in the Champions League since the 2013-2014 season and since 2017.

The problem is that when one of your players practically doesn't work without the ball, you have to abandon many tactical ideas typical of total football, also you have to make adjustments in your transfer policy - like buying Rakitic instead of Kroos, because the latter is several times better without the ball and can cover Leo's ass, although Kroos is better on the ball.

 

[KingLeo10]

That RM team of:

Benzema
Bale
Ramos
Pepe
Modric
Kroos
Marcelo
Carvajal
Casemiro
Isco
Varane
Di Maria
Navas

+

world class LW instead of CR7

wins probably 3 of the 5 CLs from 2014 to 2018. That means Bumnaldo was probably worth 1 extra CL in that time frame. Obviously an important player, and the most important one perhaps (though I am less and less convinced the more I see how RM do without him), but he benefited from the team more than the team benefited from him.

He's been a big, fat flop for Portugal over 5 World Cups with loads of world class players. Who ran the midfield for PSG the other night? Portugal duo Keep clinging to that Spain game like it meant shit. Group stage game with minimal consequence That's all you've got in 20 years of failure.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

That RM team of:

Benzema
Bale
Ramos
Pepe
Modric
Kroos
Marcelo
Carvajal
Casemiro
Isco
Varane
Di Maria
Navas

+

world class LW

wins probably 3 of the 5 CLs from 2014 to 2018. That means Bumnaldo was probably worth 1 extra CL in that time frame. Obviously an important player, and the most important one perhaps (though I am less and less convinced the more I see how RM do without him), but he benefited from the team more than the team benefited from him.

He's been a big, fat flop for Portugal over 5 World Cups with loads of world class players. Who ran the midfield for PSG the other night? Portugal duo Keep clinging to that Spain game like it meant shit. Group stage game with minimal consequence That's all you've got in 20 years of failure.

Good effort and some good points, unfortunately also some wrong things...

Cristiano scored more goals than most teams in cl during the cl winning years, without him they would have already lost vs wolfsburg in 2016 😳 his hattricks vs atletico and bayern lead them to final in 2017, would say they would have won 1 in that time without him
Also guys like Isco or Bale were irrelevant after Cristiano left Madrid so it was playing WITH him what made them suddenly wc...
If we look at Messi, he won 2 cls during the team where Spain 2x Euros and 1 WC while without Barca he scored 0 in Wc10 even though he played well there. So Spain which was lead from Barca's midfield won 3/3 titles while Messi won 2/4 cl with them. Difficult to imagine they would have won less with Messi. In 2015 we had peak Suarez/Ney, Iniesta,Alves,Pique - and only 1 cl bruh.
As said then 3 finals which were lost and in 2 cops finals where he won he was worst player on the pitch. WC he had great moments, the number of pens is a bit sus but i will give credit for his assists. So as you see its normal that a player benefits more a team than the way around. I would also agree that Cristiano needed more real than opposite way, i think thats normal

 

[KingLeo10]

Good effort and some good points, unfortunately also some wrong things...

Cristiano scored more goals than most teams in cl during the cl winning years, without him they would have already lost vs wolfsburg in 2016 😳 his hattricks vs atletico and bayern lead them to ginal in 2017, would say they would have won 1 in that time without him

If we look at Messi, he won 2 cls during the team where Spain 2x Euros and 1 WC while without Barca he scored 0 in Wc10 even though he played well there. So Spain which was lead from Barca's midfield won 3/3 titles while Messi won 2/4 cl with them. Difficult to imagine they would have won less with Messi.
As said then 3 finals which were lost and in 2 cops finals where he won he was worst player on the pitch. WC he had great moments, the number of pens is a bit sus but i will give credit for his assists. So as you see its normal that a player benefits more a team than the way around. I woulf also agree that Cristiano needed more real than opposite way, i think thats normal

Messi has 1 WC and 2 Copa without the Spanish midfield and good but not great teammates. The only great one in those trophies was an old Di Maria. That's it.

CR7 has nothing without stacked teams (yes, the ManU team where he won that CL was stacked with prime Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, Van Der Saar etc.).

I don't know why you keep foaming and arguing this still. The World Cup killed you and the CR7 fanboys. You know this is the truth because you disappeared for 7 months until the pain became somewhat bearable

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Messi has 1 WC and 2 Copa without the Spanish midfield and good but not great teammates. The only great one in those trophies was an old Di Maria. That's it.

CR7 has nothing without stacked teams (yes, the ManU team where he won that CL was stacked with prime Rooney, Tevez, Scholes, Rio, Vidic, Van Der Saar etc.).

I don't know why you keep foaming and arguing this still. The World Cup killed you and the CR7 fanboys. You know this is the truth because you disappeared for 7 months until the pain became somewhat bearable

CR7 lead Portugal to first 2 titles in history and his team mates were worse than from Argentina 👀

Ok dude lets stop it, we wont convince each other 🤣🤣 have a nice evening

 

[KingLeo10]

CR7 lead Portugal to first 2 titles in history and his team mates were worse than from Argentina 👀

Ok dude lets stop it, we wont convince each other 🤣🤣 have a nice evening

He didn't play in the final of Euro 2016 where EDER won it

Counting Nations League as a serious trophy

Keep seething, donkey.

 

[M3ls]

@Fati_Future_BallonDor

I don't agree that Messi has stronger partners in the national team, than CR.

I don't think it's necessary to discuss Leo's success in Argentina in the context of the problem we're talking about, because:

1) national team and club games are on different planes.

2) Leo was much more industrious without the ball in the national team than he was in Barcelona because he felt pressure from the Argentine fans. He felt no such pressure at Barcelona, because Barcelona fans always reasoned like this - the team was destroyed in the Champions League? Okay, everyone is to blame, but not Messi. Messi is a saint, even his feces is not shit, it's hot chocolate, why not eat it? For example, @DonAK is from the category of such fans.

 

[DonAK]

For example, @DonAK is from the category of such fans.

You can search in this thread for the last time I had this argument with you where I outlined both Messi's flaws and his poor performances in several KO games, but also explained how a lot of other players underperformed as well.

One player cannot win you every game. Even when Messi actually pressed more and didn't stand around in 2018/19, the team collapsed and were eliminated which kind of proves the point.

It's a team sport.

One player can elevate a team tenfold which GOAT-tier players like Messi did, but even those players depend on their team mates doing their job. Maradona wouldn't win in 86 without Valdano also performing really well.

Pele wouldn't win multiple WCs without all the great players alongside him. CR7 was never someone that ran either, but the team around him was built better during Real Madrid's three-peat run, and they had other players who stepped up in big moments as well.

There are a lot of factors in play, a lot of things to consider.

I've had this conversation with you before, but you're so blind in your hatred of Messi that you're unwilling to even see that point of view. So don't accuse me of something that in fact you are yourself.

The fact that you post these videos and stats monthly says it all. You're not looking to discuss anything. You're just here to shit on a player as if he fucked your family.