Lionel "The Greatest of All Time" Messi

[malvolio]

OG, you've already been wrong about the Copa America and Ballon D'Or (undeserved or not, he did win it).

I would pump the brakes on celebrating so soon. Come May, might look like another silly take.

So far Messi fans are 2-0 over CR7 fans this year.

last time i've checked messi already achieved the following this season(in order of influence messi had over those achievements):

1. qualified for WC 2022 with Argentina
2. qualified for CL KOs with PSG
3. all but won Ligue 1 with PSG

ronaldo so far this season:

1. qualified for CL KOs with Man Utd
2. failed to qualify for WC 2022 with Portugal, has another chance vs Italy though
3. struggling to get into EPL top 4 with Man Utd

i know, different league level and messi was pretty anonymous in ligue 1, even though he played injured up until st etienne match.

but otherwise, messi hasn't done that bad. considering all the traveling and fitness issues + the whole PSG move fucking up his life a bit.

 

[Windhook]

CR didnt need to adapt anywhere, certainly not as a mature footballer.

Exactly which club did CR got it clicking and went straight BdO level in his first season? Man Utd? Real Madrid? Juventus? Man Utd again?

 

[BarcaOG]

Exactly which club did CR got it clicking and went straight BdO level in his first season? Man Utd? Real Madrid? Juventus? Man Utd again?

mature* CR.

in his first season at real he had idk 28 goals? same at juventus, first season idk 25-30 goals? so far 12 goals at united?

dont equate 'adapting' with 'being bdor worthy', lol. totally different things

 

[BarcaOG]

last time i've checked messi already achieved the following this season(in order of influence messi had over those achievements):

1. qualified for WC 2022 with Argentina
2. qualified for CL KOs with PSG
3. all but won Ligue 1 with PSG

ronaldo so far this season:

1. qualified for CL KOs with Man Utd
2. failed to qualify for WC 2022 with Portugal, has another chance vs Italy though
3. struggling to get into EPL top 4 with Man Utd

i know, different league level and messi was pretty anonymous in ligue 1, even though he played injured up until st etienne match.

but otherwise, messi hasn't done that bad. considering all the traveling and fitness issues + the whole PSG move fucking up his life a bit.

lol awful false equivalence between United and psg

tougher league, no coach, poor squad.

 

[malvolio]

lol awful false equivalence between United and psg

tougher league, no coach, poor squad.

tougher CL group for PSG.

what's the excuse for portugal results though?

 

[BarcaOG]

tougher CL group for PSG.

what's the excuse for portugal results though?

CR scored a legitimate goal that was erroneously ruled offside. fairly well documented now. that goal is allowed, portugal is through

 

[malvolio]

CR scored a legitimate goal that was erroneously ruled offside. fairly well documented now. that goal is allowed, portugal is through

they had time to fix that. game at home vs serbia where they shat the bed.

 

[KingLeo10]

I don't like the characterization of United's squad as poor. They have Varane, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, DDG in addition to CR7. Last season Messi had Griezmann, FDJ, Pedri, and Alba by comparison. ManU's not an elite squad but it's definitely a good squad.

Nor that CR7 had no coach. Messi's critics were't excusing him for playing under Setien and Koeman who are pretty much the same garbage tier as Ole. Actually Ole's record v big teams without CR7 is better than anything Setien or Koeman accomplished.

 

[BarcaOG]

I don't like the characterization of United's squad as poor. They have Varane, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, DDG in addition to CR7. Last season Messi had Griezmann, FDJ, Pedri, and Alba by comparison. ManU's not an elite squad but it's definitely a good squad.

Nor that CR7 had no coach. Messi's critics were't excusing him for playing under Setien and Koeman who are pretty much the same garbage tier as Ole. Actually Ole's record v big teams without CR7 is better than anything Setien or Koeman accomplished.

the names you list certainly indicate a strong squad, but football is not played on paper. in practice--i.e. for those who are actually watching united--pogba is much more mediocre, and often counter productive (i.e. silly red cards) than he is useful. he has 15 meh games for united for every 1 in which he is great. Varane, as ive said before, is today both injury prone and much less effective than when he was at real. his mistakes against City in the CL two years ago i think shocked him, and he simply hasnt been the same since.

bruno is good indeed, very good sometimes even, but has been off this season so far. mason greenwood? lol: he had a few good games last season, but has produced nothing this term. same with rashford--hes united's theo walcott. lots of promise there, but really hasnt cashed in. DDG is good, that much is true. sancho also is struggling. add to that the likes of maguire, mactomminay and fred, who most of the time are fumbling clowns, and you dont really have a strong squad. hence united's position on the table.

you are right that OGS is probably on par with koeman and Setien (actually, he is likely better), but he is still not a 'great' coach--certainly he is some tiers below the likes of tuchel, klopp, and pep. pochetino, who i dont rate as a manager at all, is certainly better.

PSG most definitely has a stronger squad and coach than united; i really dont think that is contestable.

 

[KingLeo10]

the names you list certainly indicate a strong squad, but football is not played on paper. in practice--i.e. for those who are actually watching united--pogba is much more mediocre, and often counter productive (i.e. silly red cards) than he is useful. he has 15 meh games for united for every 1 in which he is great. Varane, as ive said before, is today both injury prone and much less effective than when he was at real. his mistakes against City in the CL two years ago i think shocked him, and he simply hasnt been the same since.

bruno is good indeed, very good sometimes even, but has been off this season so far. mason greenwood? lol: he had a few good games last season, but has produced nothing this term. same with rashford--hes united's theo walcott. lots of promise there, but really hasnt cashed in. DDG is good, that much is true. sancho also is struggling. add to that the likes of maguire, mactomminay and fred, who most of the time are fumbling clowns, and you dont really have a strong squad. hence united's position on the table.

you are right that OGS is probably on par with koeman and Setien (actually, he is likely better), but he is still not a 'great' coach--certainly he is some tiers below the likes of tuchel, klopp, and pep. pochetino, who i dont rate as a manager at all, is certainly better.

PSG most definitely has a stronger squad and coach than united; i really dont think that is contestable.

This is not hate or picking a fight, but I think this is a good talking point of why we don't seem to see eye to to eye:

There are a lot of instances where I troll CR7 for his instagram rants or Dubai D'Ors or even performances, but when I get serious and actually appraise his merits, I unilaterally state that he is basically easily a top 5 player all time. I've given him props many times over the last 4-5 years since his CL runs.

What you've done in relation to my argument about ManU's squad strength is add nuance/caveat/context. Because you like CR7, you're justifying some of his shortcomings by pointing out context. Which is fair. Messi fans do this for Messi. But when it's done for Messi, one can't then claim that the forum is being delusional (okay there are some delusional fanboys on either side, but I don't think you are that for CR7 and I am not one of those for Messi).

If you look at context, it's hard to dispute even if you don't like Messi, that he has a resume of a top 5 player all time. But reading some of your posts, one gets the impression you rate him on the level of a Hazard. I get trolling Messi if you're not a fan of him, but I would like to see props for him where they are due as well.

 

[Windhook]

mature* CR.

in his first season at real he had idk 28 goals? same at juventus, first season idk 25-30 goals? so far 12 goals at united?

dont equate 'adapting' with 'being bdor worthy', lol. totally different things

Okay, adapting it is if you want to talk on the subject, players manage to do that in time, but what it has to do with bigger picture - who was the better individual player? Numbers of goals scored? Cristiano had a better start at his new team compared to Messi, no doubt, but Leo seems to pick up form of lately, meanwhile Ronaldo seems stuck since Ole got the sacking. IMO both players are past their glory days and none of them will win any major silverware next year.

I believe you are a Barca fan and hurt badly from what Real Madrid achieved since 2013 in CL compared to ours, but hating Messi is something on a different level. Even Madridistas don't do that.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I don't like the characterization of United's squad as poor. They have Varane, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, DDG in addition to CR7. Last season Messi had Griezmann, FDJ, Pedri, and Alba by comparison. ManU's not an elite squad but it's definitely a good squad.

Nor that CR7 had no coach. Messi's critics were't excusing him for playing under Setien and Koeman who are pretty much the same garbage tier as Ole. Actually Ole's record v big teams without CR7 is better than anything Setien or Koeman accomplished.

I would take Rashford out, he has been awful since weeks

Its as OG said, many good names on paper but most of the time crap on the field. I think this had also a lot to do with Ole, he has been horrible. Under Ralf the players looked better, lets see what Ralfi can achieve. Would have seen him here instead of xavi.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

There are a lot of instances where I troll CR7 for his instagram rants or Dubai D'Ors ?
.

The Dubai D'Dor is a serious trophy

 

[BarcaOG]

This is not hate or picking a fight, but I think this is a good talking point of why we don't seem to see eye to to eye:

There are a lot of instances where I troll CR7 for his instagram rants or Dubai D'Ors or even performances, but when I get serious and actually appraise his merits, I unilaterally state that he is basically easily a top 5 player all time. I've given him props many times over the last 4-5 years since his CL runs.

What you've done in relation to my argument about ManU's squad strength is add nuance/caveat/context. Because you like CR7, you're justifying some of his shortcomings by pointing out context. Which is fair. Messi fans do this for Messi. But when it's done for Messi, one can't then claim that the forum is being delusional (okay there are some delusional fanboys on either side, but I don't think you are that for CR7 and I am not one of those for Messi).

If you look at context, it's hard to dispute even if you don't like Messi, that he has a resume of a top 5 player all time. But reading some of your posts, one gets the impression you rate him on the level of a Hazard. I get trolling Messi if you're not a fan of him, but I would like to see props for him where they are due as well.

that's fair. my argument pointed to context on messi's behalf as well, though: i.e. his context has changed from barca to psg but i still see the same habits that i detested in him when he was here and, to a degree, even worse, since at least he was doing okkkkayyy in the league here, against the small teams anyway.

and to be clear: messi is in my top 5 too, without a doubt; higher than CR in fact, but not by much, (like ive said before messi had a higher peak but CR a better career) second only to maradona.

 

[Rassvet]

Robert Lewandowski: "Messi said that I deserved to be given the 2020 Ballon d'Or? I would like for his statement to be honest, not just empty words."