Luis Enrique

serghei

Senior Member
Cesc wanted out, so he was going either way. The problem was not signing Kroos. And also the way Lucho is using the midfielders. Neither cesc nor Kroos would be playing well under this crazy setup, anyway.

That's opened to interpretation. Of course you want out when the club shows little interest in you. Same with Alexis. Briliant young player who got sold in his prime so that Lucho can play Munir in his position less than 2 months later.

The system/setup is messed up, that's clear. We could build a solid midfield with what we have now, maybe not the best in the world, but still solid. But we can't turn Lucho into Ancelotti or Pep over night, and that is the big problem.

We have a team that needs some tuning and we don't have the right man to make it work.
 
F

Flavia

Guest
I didn't mind the Cesc sale. Cesc was never going to be what Barca wanted and needed him to be. He has too many flaws in his game. Chelsea and Mourinho have structured a team around him to cover his flaws and allow his creativity, which is his strong skill no doubt, and very strong it is, to shine. When you watch Chelsea play, Cesc in enveloped in a cocoon of protection from all sides. He would have never had that at Barca and would have needed to perform a much more complete game which I don't believe he is capable.

The team needed to buy another quality midfielder and whether chose not to, or did not have enough money because of Suarez, the fact of the matter was they did not, and now we're suffering for it. On top of the mess that is the midfield right now tactically.

They had the money. they were ready to pay a lot for Koke, he didn't come because he didn't want to. Passing on kroos was pretty stupid, there's no excuse for that.
 
I

instinct

Guest
Well, apparently we wanted to sign Koke who rejected us. I don't understand why they didn't make a bid for Kroos/Pjanic though but I do think that a 2nd midfielder was on their shopping list.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I didn't mind the Cesc sale. Cesc was never going to be what Barca wanted and needed him to be. He has too many flaws in his game. Chelsea and Mourinho have structured a team around him to cover his flaws and allow his creativity, which is his strong skill no doubt, and very strong it is, to shine. When you watch Chelsea play, Cesc in enveloped in a cocoon of protection from all sides. He would have never had that at Barca and would have needed to perform a much more complete game which I don't believe he is capable.

The team needed to buy another quality midfielder and whether chose not to, or did not have enough money because of Suarez, the fact of the matter was they did not, and now we're suffering for it. On top of the mess that is the midfield right now tactically.

I dissagree. You put Mascherano and Rakitic behind Cesc and you have plenty of protection. It's certainly better than playing with no playmaker. Cesc is no Xavi, but he's two times better than Rafinha, better than the current Iniesta and Busquets.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Well, apparently we wanted to sign Koke who rejected us. I don't understand why they didn't make a bid for Kroos/Pjanic though but I do think that a 2nd midfielder was on their shopping list.

Basically, we bought 5 players for less than we bought Suarez for. What do you expect? 1 WC signing, 1 good signing, and the rest are all bad (not counting the keepers).
 
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Alarcón

New member
Lucho got the players he wanted.

This is an argument I've been reading a lot on here lately and beside the fact that it's irrelevant to the discussion whether or not Lucho's tactics have crippled our midfielders, it's also not very fair to the coach. He has more than enough to do preparing training, studying opponents and whatnot already, so you can't expect him to watch football 24/7 and know every player who would be good enough for Barça and suit the style of play. That is the sports director's and the scouts' task. Lucho asked for a few players, half of them we didn't get and they came up with ridiculous alternatives, not to mention they could have vetoed signing a particular player, or suggested buying another midfielder for example; but none of that happened. They're supposed to be the ones who know which players to buy, not Lucho. And all they came up with, apparently, was Suárez (obvious), Douglas and Vermaelen. It's not a coincidence our transfers have been downright embarrassing for several years in a row, under several coaches, so you can't blame Lucho for everything.
 

pacp_96

Chief Of Footballing Matters
From the Barca site:

Messi, with nine assists, is the only Barça player to top Luis Suárez in the assists category. Dani Alves and Andrés Iniesta have both got two, while the others are shared by Piqué, Alba, Bartra, Rafinha, Busquets, Rakitic, Pedro and Munir.

It doesn't breakdown what competitions they were in but those are the clubs stats.
 

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
Ok, but there is a one difference.
In 2003, we had HIT THE BOTTOM. And the board (Laporta), a coach (Rijkaard) and fans were ready for a new era/new cycle, even if that means selling virtually 50% of the first team players...

But then, as always, the same curse strucked his team...

Players who were once motivated and who jumped into a shoes of the old guard players, suddenly started to play exactly like the players from 1999-2003 era.
Ronaldinho, Deco and co started to be lazy, they started to party too much etc...

Again, then Pep came, and kicked ALL the players from this generation in order to build a new team.

My point is: NO. Lucho doesn't have any similarities with Rijkaard or Pep.
Our team, coach and the board still haven't figured out that this team is mostly dead and finished.
And this is not a season of transition, lol. We are dead, and we are weaker and weaker each Month. And we will continue to fall further and further until someone will kick out at least 50% of the current team out.

Seriously, do you think that Lucho or the current board have the balls to say goodbye to: Pique, Pedro, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Montoya and lots of other players?
No.

Do you know why?
Because they will reply: "But those players are not finished, they can still play very well"

Look, Ronaldinho, Deco, Motta, Edmilson, Belletti, and lots of other players could have still played good. But they were all kicked out because they were past their prime.
And a team full of players who are past their prime is NOT good enough to win CL.

Anyway, I just don't see how Lucho will repeat Rijkaard's or Pep's success with the current set of unmotivated and mostly past-their-prime players.
Both Rijkaard and Pep would kick out half of these players, and they would either promote youngsters, or like Rijkaard, they would buy 16 new players in 2 Seasons.

We still haven't hit the bottom. And we haven't started a transition yet.

So, please don't compare Lucho and this board with Laporta, Rijkaard and Pep.

Great post and you highlighted key aspects of what made Rijkaard successful. Its important to remember that Madrid at this time were struggling with their identity big time, tried to sign a bunch of expensive players to fill the void, first with the Galactico's and then the Dutch invasion (Ruud, Sneijder, Robben). The similarities between us right now and them in 2005 are rather striking.

The only thing is that the difference with our decline now and the end of the Rijkaard era was that then it was mainly due to the void left in the team by Ronaldinho and Deco. He was trying to find a system that squeezed Ronaldinho, Henry, Eto'o and Messi all into the same formation and once both Ronnie and Deco dipped in form, it was over for him.

Now, we have players who are either past it or in very poor form, lack confidence or don't have the hunger and focus to play at the elite level AND a completely broken tactical system. The only players from the old guard who I think can still have a place in this team going forward are none other than Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. Its clear with them that it isn't due to a lack of hunger and not giving a fuck, they just can't do as much on their own as they used to. Ronaldinho and Deco's decline was more like what Alves and Pique are in now: complacent from winning all the time, living the life more as a celebrity than an athlete. I even worry and wonder about whether or not Busquets is headed in the same direction and while I won't include him in the scrap pile yet, Alves, Pique and Pedro moving on from the squad would do a lot of good for us.

what system did Ancelotti used at the beginning of the last season? Or Pep? They were experimenting, lot of ideas but not a clear system. I can agree that there is not a clear system right at Barca now but I still argue that this is quite a norm when transition begins, it's the case with the first rate managers as well. In pep's case, there was the best system of the football already built in but he still started to tweak and finally changed it completely over that I think totally got them screwed over in the CL semi final.
But they really have a system in their second year, as far as I have seen this year.

With Ancelotti, he had a squad that was already honed in the right direction by Mourinho. The defensive discipline, pace in attack was the foundation Mourinho left Ancelotti and Ancelotti simply tweaked it a bit. The biggest difference between Madrid this year and last year was mainly their formation: he transitioned from the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 system Mourinho used to the 4-4-2 you see now with Benz and Ronaldo as the strikers and the other 8 drilled with strict defensive duties. Its the only way they have been able to get away with playing four attacking midfielders in a 4-4-2 with everyone putting in a shift, dropping back and pressing in the midfield. In many ways, they do the same thing we used to do with Pep: win the ball in midfield with an aggressive press and immediately shift to the counter attack. They are simply more direct while we play possession. Pep has always been in the right direction with Bayern since last season. The 3-3-1-3 is brilliant, and I see why he moved Lahm as DM because he is the smartest player on the pitch and he acts as Bayern's reference point. A big reason why we are struggling now, we lack a real reference point when on the ball to help orient our shape.

I won't completely write off Lucho yet but unless he has a drastic change of heart here, he doesn't show any sign of even being aware of the tactical deficiencies of this team right now. How he came up with the idea of having the attacking midfielders cover for the WINGBACKS in a 4-3-3 shape is beyond me. Its like he doesn't realize either a) what made this team good in the first place and b) that his tactics in no shape or form suit the players we have.

Games are won in the midfield. Pep realized this and our dominance in MF is what allowed this style of play to function. I don't think that our players can't play in it anymore, they have simply forgotten the small details that make it work. Quick one-touch passing, constantly shaping and forming into triangles and actually moving and supporting the man on the ball, moving as a unit, knowing our shape and knowing where everyone is on the pitch. Our team either a) makes a stupid, blind run forward with no concern of whether or not there is actually space to move into or b) just stands around and watches either Messi or Neymar try to take on three players by themselves and when they miraculously don't beat every player on the other team, it takes them at least 3 seconds to realize its time to track back. This is schoolboy shit, we don't do things that youth teams know to do and that's what concerns me with Lucho right now. Personally, I don't think its that all our players aren't motivated or hungry anymore, its just no one has a clue what to do tactically and are so confused that they are just improvising and with a lack of direction, the moment something goes wrong it is 10x more difficult to rectify the mistake than it would be if the team is all on the same page.

Our football demands 11 players all together as a cohesive unit as one. What we are seeing right now doesn't even come close to that and without a true team oriented approach instead of placing the teams fate in the hands of three forwards, it will continue to get worse.
 
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Flavia

Guest
This is an argument I've been reading a lot on here lately and beside the fact that it's irrelevant to the discussion whether or not Lucho's tactics have crippled our midfielders, it's also not very fair to the coach. He has more than enough to do preparing training, studying opponents and whatnot already, so you can't expect him to watch football 24/7 and know every player who would be good enough for Barça and suit the style of play. That is the sports director's and the scouts' task. Lucho asked for a few players, half of them we didn't get and they came up with ridiculous alternatives, not to mention they could have vetoed signing a particular player, or suggested buying another midfielder for example; but none of that happened. They're supposed to be the ones who know which players to buy, not Lucho. And all they came up with, apparently, was Suárez (obvious), Douglas and Vermaelen. It's not a coincidence our transfers have been downright embarrassing for several years in a row, under several coaches, so you can't blame Lucho for everything.

Lucho requested Suarez himself. The one he didn't get was cuadrado, and he had to accept douglas instead. Not getting kroos in on him, yes. If he wanted kroos, he wouldn't had vetoed him. He asked zubi to push for koke, but when it was clear he wouldn't come, Lucho thought Rakitic, Rafinha, Iniesta, Roberto and Xavi were enough. Here we are, now.

Zubi's solo brainfarts this window are douglas and vermaelen, which Lucho accepted, anyway.
 

Ursegor

World Champion
It's only gradually sinking in that Barcelona bought Vermaelen and Douglas with a 2 year transfer ban for already weak positions.
 

Devils

Senior Member
To me, it isn't even a debate about the what if Cesc stayed or if we signed Kroos.

The fact that we only have 1 assist with a midfield players such as Iniesta, Xavi, Rakitic, Masch, Busi, Rafinha is so astoundingly ridiculous, it's physically daunting.

There is no excuse, and it just further reiterates the madness of Lucho's reign so far.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
I dissagree. You put Mascherano and Rakitic behind Cesc and you have plenty of protection. It's certainly better than playing with no playmaker. Cesc is no Xavi, but he's two times better than Rafinha, better than the current Iniesta and Busquets.

Playing Cesc as an attacking mid with protection behind him like you suggest would have probably been better than what the team is running now, I agree, but I don't think it would have ultimately been the solution for the future.

Barca could use Cesc right at this moment, no doubt. Iniesta injured, Rafinha under-performing and Roberto being Roberto, but that still would not have meant Cesc is the answer.

The idea was to find the right upgrade, not just some upgrade.

In my opinion the failure was not in selling Cesc, but in not getting another midfielder.

And if it is true what Flavia and Instinct are saying that they had the money and simply gave up after Koke decided to stay at Atletico, then that's still a massive failure. You did not get the player you wanted, so the solution now is get no one at all? Kroos and Pjanic would have cost a lot less and would have been invaluable at this junction for Barca.
 
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Bertus

New member
Lucho requested Suarez himself. The one he didn't get was cuadrado, and he had to accept douglas instead. Not getting kroos in on him, yes. If he wanted kroos, he wouldn't had vetoed him. He asked zubi to push for koke, but when it was clear he wouldn't come, Lucho thought Rakitic, Rafinha, Iniesta, Roberto and Xavi were enough. Here we are, now.

Zubi's solo brainfarts this window are douglas and vermaelen, which Lucho accepted, anyway.

Adding to the list:

- Lucho wanted Marquinhos, but the board failed to sign him.
- Lucho veto-ed against signing DL (but PSG board says that the real reason is that PSG made a better offer. Trust who you want)
 

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