Luis Enrique

[Sumlit]

TBF despite their pressure Atletico never really got any clear opportunities at goal and if we can keep that up the lack of midfield domination would not hurt us too much.

I disagree. Torres goal came from pressure on Mascherano. Griezmann had 2 clear chances at goal, one he mishit and the other Alba's handball, both coming from pressure. Juanfran's fake penalty also came from pressure.

It's bad for the team, it puts them in a bad position and opens doors for mistakes, errors and opportunities.

Listen I love the counters and quick hits. This is something Barcelona needed to incorporate to their attack for years now. But it cannot be a replacement in style, not entirely. It has to be an incorporation, an adaptation, an inclusion. NOT a replacement.

 

[BBZ8800]

I disagree. Torres goal came from pressure on Mascherano. Griezmann had 2 clear chances at goal, one he mishit and the other Alba's handball, both coming from pressure. Juanfran's fake penalty also came from pressure.

It's bad for the team, it puts them in a bad position and opens doors for mistakes, errors and opportunities.

Listen I love the counters and quick hits. This is something Barcelona needed to incorporate to their attack for years now. But it cannot be a replacement in style, not entirely. It has to be an incorporation, an adaptation, an inclusion. NOT a replacement.

Ok, but look at it this way:
1. let's say that in the last 2-3 years we played Pep's system with a lot of Possession, isn't it?
2. now we are playing something different

Again, while I agree that we should combine these 2 into one new system.
But even when we played extreme possession football, or a copy of it with Tito and Tata, Atletico, Real and other teams were creating 5-10 chances each match, isn't it?
(please don't reply that we didn't play Pep's system. You know what I am trying to say. we played some sort of extreme possession style)

So, when you say that Atletico created chances because they pressured us, but so what?
They created even more chances when we played Possession last Season, isn't it?

I am slightly simplifying it but:
1. if we play possession:
= strong teams like Atletico and Real will still create chances and score against us
-- while we won't create too much chances with our sterile possession style
2. if we play counterattacks:
= strong teams like Atletico and Real will AGAIN create some chances, as always
-- but we will create much more chances than in possession style

So, compared to last Season:
-- teams created chances against us BOTH when we played possession and now when we play counterattacks
-- but WE are playing much better and more lethal (in attack) when we play faster actions

Again, I agree that we should improve in control and passing.
But a few chances for opponent isn't a too huge problem.

Opponents will always create a few chances, no matter how we play.

 

[Gasgas]

Ok, but look at it this way:
1. let's say that in the last 2-3 years we played Pep's system with a lot of Possession, isn't it?
2. now we are playing something different

Again, while I agree that we should combine these 2 into one new system.
But even when we played extreme possession football, or a copy of it with Tito and Tata, Atletico, Real and other teams were creating 5-10 chances each match, isn't it?
(please don't reply that we didn't play Pep's system. You know what I am trying to say. we played some sort of extreme possession style)

So, when you say that Atletico created chances because they pressured us, but so what?
They created even more chances when we played Possession last Season, isn't it?

I am slightly simplifying it but:
1. if we play possession:
= strong teams like Atletico and Real will still create chances and score against us
-- while we won't create too much chances with our sterile possession style
2. if we play counterattacks:
= strong teams like Atletico and Real will AGAIN create some chances, as always
-- but we will create much more chances than in possession style

So, compared to last Season:
-- teams created chances against us BOTH when we played possession and now when we play counterattacks
-- but WE are playing much better and more lethal (in attack) when we play faster actions

Again, I agree that we should improve in control and passing.
But a few chances for opponent isn't a too huge problem.

Opponents will always create a few chances, no matter how we play.

Excellent comment!

You cant have it all with modern football
You cant have 98% possession, 67 counterattacks, and no chances conceded!

Under pep we used to concede chances too, most of them even more clear cut than that griezman acrobatic shot, or that ither one straight to alba's arm, with extreme possession we conceded one on ones, and those counterattacks like the one real madrid had vs us under mourinho!

This new style enrique is bringing is a bit balanced at both keeping the ball and counterattacking yet liniting opponents!
That is what it takes to win games and trophies these days

 

[Sumlit]

I don't know why you're making it one or the other when I am clearly asking for it to be a mixture.

What we saw in the first half of this game vs Atletico is not something I believe is conducive to sustained success for this team. While it is a positive to have this new-found prowess on counters, and while the team certainly needs a faster paced play, what we saw for the first 45 minutes vs Atletico was smothering pressure completely stifling and baffling Barca's ability to play from the back, fast or otherwise. They reduced Barca's to divided long balls.

Barca's is not always going to be as efficient with their chances as they were in that first half.

A balance needs to be struck and they need to come up with a strategy to ease pressure when opponents look to pressure the CBs and cut the build up play from the back.

 

[Gasgas]

I don't know why you're making it one or the other when I am clearly asking for it to be a mixture.

What we saw in the first half of this game vs Atletico is not something I believe is conducive to sustained success for this team. While it is a positive to have this new-found prowess on counters, and while the team certainly needs a faster paced play, what we saw for the first 45 minutes vs Atletico was smothering pressure completely stifling and baffling Barca's ability to play from the back, fast or otherwise. They reduced Barca's to divided long balls.

Barca's is not always going to be as efficient with their chances as they were in that first half.

A balance needs to be struck and they need to come up with a strategy to ease pressure when opponents look to pressure the CBs and cut the build up play from the back.

Excuse me but i think the conditions called for that type of play, excessive press by atleti, a soggy pitch minimizing ground play,
Why not have a plan B for such situations instead of sticking to the tried and failed, because if you ask me, even under pep and tito we used to score early goals under madrid due to early pressure.
We are not always going to be that effective at finishing those chances, that is why we have MSN to maximize the possibility,
For the same reason we may not always pass well from the back too, e.g valdes two errors vs madrid, pinto error vs atletico at the camp nou, alves poor pass to pique in 2012 at the camp nou that lead to higuain's missed one on one.

 

[Kohe321]

We played a great game yesterday and won deservedly. Games against Atletico at the Calderón where they need to overcome a deficit will be very intense, and we need to meet this energy and take the game to them, which we absolutely did yesterday evening.

This means being pragmatic and direct and embracing the fight, not slowing it down. Any attempt at "controlling" the game by keeping pointless possession through passing sideways will only lead to us not creating enough chances while being hit very hard every time they catch us on the break. Something that happened again and again last season. If anything this type of possession football just gave us a false sense of "control" over the game. By being willing to meet their intensity and even surpassing it, by being direct and taking chances at counters, by being willing to enter into a more open game we actually ended up controlling it more than we ever did last season. How? By scoring and taking the game from them while meeting them at their own terms. By simply being better and more versatile than them, both as a unit and individually.

I'd take this style of football over the mindless "possession for possessions own sake" any day. As BBZ8800 correctly points out, the mix of possession football and this direct and pragmatic style is actually much more "vintage Barca" than the purely possession-based sideways herding-game we've been playing the past seasons. This style is much less one dimensional, more unpredictable and can't really be figured out because we have so many different strings to play on. Teams have to beat us by being better than us at all facets of the game, something that is not easy to accomplish.



Maybe he's not such a bad coach after all?

 

[Flavia]

I don't know why you're making it one or the other when I am clearly asking for it to be a mixture.

What we saw in the first half of this game vs Atletico is not something I believe is conducive to sustained success for this team. While it is a positive to have this new-found prowess on counters, and while the team certainly needs a faster paced play, what we saw for the first 45 minutes vs Atletico was smothering pressure completely stifling and baffling Barca's ability to play from the back, fast or otherwise. They reduced Barca's to divided long balls.

Barca's is not always going to be as efficient with their chances as they were in that first half.

A balance needs to be struck and they need to come up with a strategy to ease pressure when opponents look to pressure the CBs and cut the build up play from the back.

It'll be hard to find the balance you want, because we don't have the midfielders for that. Xavi is past it, so is Iniesta. I think it was the best way to play against atletico there. You can't ignore the horrible pitch either. Those always make our midfield struggle.

 

[Sumlit]

It'll be hard to find the balance you want, because we don't have the midfielders for that. Xavi is past it, so is Iniesta. I think it was the best way to play against atletico there.

The balance was there in the nice run of play the team has been in.

Those first 45 minutes of last game was unlike any game Barca have played for likely the last 7 years. It was unlike they've played the last games in which they've had success. It was unlike they've played in the previous 2 games vs Atleti. It was a total nullification of build up play, fast or slow, and complete dependence on divided balls, 50-50 long balls and counters. This is NOT conducive to sustained success.

People are getting too caught up in the result, but consider how anomalous that first half was. Barca had 3 counters and ALL three resulted in goals (one wrongfully called offside, the other started off a clear handball), the rest was an own goal. That was the extent of Barca's play in that first half. There was nothing else. That's what separated a good result from a catastrophe. That type of efficiency is not sustainable.

People saying Barca played well are, IMHO, incorrect. Barca played poorly. They were nullified by Atletico's high pressure and only 3 counters at an efficiency of 100% and a fluke own goal saved the day. You can neither depend on 100% efficiency, not even close, nor on own goals.

And before I get responded again with the argument of fast play vs slow possession, I AM NOT ARGUING THAT, never did from the start. My concern from the very first post was how this high pressure was so incredibly successful that it WILL be utilized by other teams again, better count on it. This is a concern and needs to be addressed with a strategy. Barcelona cannot afford to get so incredible stifled from the back by high pressure like that.

 

[Flavia]

The balance was there in the nice run of play the team has been in.

Those first 45 minutes of last game was unlike any game Barca have played for likely the last 7 years. It was unlike they've played the last games in which they've had success. It was unlike they've played in the previous 2 games vs Atleti. It was a total nullification of build up play, fast or slow, and complete dependence on divided balls, 50-50 long balls and counters. This is NOT conducive to sustained success.

People are getting too caught up in the result, but consider how anomalous that first half was. Barca had 3 counters and ALL three resulted in goals (one wrongfully called offside, the other started off a clear handball), the rest was an own goal. That was the extent of Barca's play in that first half. There was nothing else. That's what separated a good result from a catastrophe. That type of efficiency is not sustainable.

People saying Barca played well are, IMHO, incorrect. Barca played poorly. They were nullified by Atletico's high pressure and only 3 counters at an efficiency of 100% and a fluke own goal saved the day. You can neither depend on 100% efficiency, not even close, nor on own goals.

And before I get responded again with the argument of fast play vs slow possession, I AM NOT ARGUING THAT, never did from the start. My concern from the very first post was how this high pressure was so incredibly successful that it WILL be utilized by other teams again, better count on it. This is a concern and needs to be addressed with a strategy. Barcelona cannot afford to get so incredible stifled from the back by high pressure like that.

Even during Pep's tenure our team struggled in those type of pitches. Comparing how games where played at Camp Nou's carpet to that potato field is not fair. The ref also allowed atletico's players to be violent and thuggerish at will. It was an odd game. The team didn't play well, they played like they had to. I'm glad they managed to adapt and score with counters.

 

[Kohe321]

The balance was there in the nice run of play the team has been in.

Those first 45 minutes of last game was unlike any game Barca have played for likely the last 7 years. It was unlike they've played the last games in which they've had success. It was unlike they've played in the previous 2 games vs Atleti. It was a total nullification of build up play, fast or slow, and complete dependence on divided balls, 50-50 long balls and counters. This is NOT conducive to sustained success.

People are getting too caught up in the result, but consider how anomalous that first half was. Barca had 3 counters and ALL three resulted in goals (one wrongfully called offside, the other started off a clear handball), the rest was an own goal. That was the extent of Barca's play in that first half. There was nothing else. That's what separated a good result from a catastrophe. That type of efficiency is not sustainable.

People saying Barca played well are, IMHO, incorrect. Barca played poorly. They were nullified by Atletico's high pressure and only 3 counters at an efficiency of 100% and a fluke own goal saved the day. You can neither depend on 100% efficiency, not even close, nor on own goals.

And before I get responded again with the argument of fast play vs slow possession, I AM NOT ARGUING THAT, never did from the start. My concern from the very first post was how this high pressure was so incredibly successful that it WILL be utilized by other teams again, better count on it. This is a concern and needs to be addressed with a strategy. Barcelona cannot afford to get so incredible stifled from the back by high pressure like that.

I couldn't disagree more with you here.

Do you really think that every game we play from here on out is going to be like this one? Playing Atletico at the Calderón when they need to overcome a deficit in goals... That is a recipe for war. They played dirty which also ruin a lot of attempts to control the game, and we had to meet them at their terms. Sure we could do better in certain facets of the game concerning control, but all in all this is pretty much what you can expect from such a game. Had we tried to slow it down, or tried to create a midfield dominance through carefull passing, chances are we would have lost. I think that would have looked a lot like the second leg CL game last season. We would not create enough chances, and every mistake we did would be punished hard.

 

[Neeraj]

First up, credit where it's due, team is finally counter-attacking, something we all have been pining for. Looks like we are headed in the correct direction. Having said that, just as we give managers time, 3 months, 6 months, etc. when things are going bad, let's not be hasty. I think what Lucho has won from the fans is patience to wait till the end of the season, to see what our trophy haul is, which let's face it, we didn't have that patience and wanted him out ASAP.

Now as for our style and the argument about us not being able to handle the pressure, I think we managed OKAY seeing that we aren't used to playing this way, and inviting pressure gives tremendous space for counter attacks. I also agree with the fact that we need to be able to slickly pass our way through such pressure - but as Flavia said, I don't think we have the personnel. Rakitic's game isn't suited for it, Iniesta is great at wriggling away, but he's not very strong and combining that with the fact that he's not playing very well, it means we have to bypass the midfield.

A good example to look at would be to take a look at the best counter-attacking team in the world - RM. Notice the initial work done by the likes of Kroos and Isco (both of whom could and should have been at Barca, ironically) when the opposition loses possession. Isco with his fantastic dribbling and movement, and Kroos with his precision passing make sure that the transition that we are looking for, is fluid and effective. Fair enough, we don't have the players for it till 2016, so I guess we have to make the best with what we have!

 

[Sumlit]

Just saying, other teams surely watched how effective the pressing of our CBs was on stumping our game. Team doesn't have the midfield to ease up and eat that pressure anymore. They'll also look at the 100% efficiency on attack and rightfully think that's not sustainable too.

We'll see this type of pressure again, you better count on it. And unless the team can muster another masterful and efficient counter clinic, they better learn to deal with that kind of pressure a hell of a lot better.

 

[Kohe321]

Just saying, other teams surely watched how effective the pressing of our CBs was on stumping our game. Team doesn't have the midfield to ease up and eat that pressure anymore. They'll also look at the 100% efficiency on attack and rightfully think that's not sustainable too.

We'll see this type of pressure again, you better count on it. And unless the team can muster another masterful and efficient counter clinic, they better learn to deal with that kind of pressure a hell of a lot better.

But it didn't "stump our game", unless you think of "our game" as the old outdated way of playing possession. "Our game" worked like a charm yesterday, we should have won 4-2 with Neymars disallowed goal. I welcome other teams to attack like this, be my guest, we'll counterattack their asses into oblivion.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Interesting discussion.

Here is how I look at it.

Atlético were playing at home. Estadio Vicente Calderón is one of the most difficult stadiums to play in for any club. Atlético were moreover forced to win the game to qualify for the semifinals and thus started very aggressively as they were supposed to do in such a situation. The quality of the pitch was very, very poor. The approach of the Atlético players was very physical as well.

Considering all this then Atlético did not really create much. Torres' goal after some 40 seconds was down to a careless pass by Mascherano and a bit of luck. Their penalty was non-existent which leaves us with the two chances that Griezmann had.

The tactical approach was a correct one given the fact that our midfield is nowhere near as strong as during Pep's tenure and given the form Messi and Neymar are in.

It's simple. If Lucho wants to fully utilize the strengths of Messi, Neymar and Suárez against teams like Atlético (away from home) that usually sit deep but in this case HAVE to attack then a counterattacking approach is ideal.

I do agree that we have to control the midfield battle more against other top teams in the future. Especially against City away next month. Having said that then the renewed faith in the counterattacking element of the game is very encouraging.

Also this discussion is mostly only relevant against other top dogs. Against lesser teams FCB will dominate possession completely as usual. That said then this approach is not always the best as seen against Getafe away. RM for instance are very good at punishing lesser teams away from home on the counter when those home teams get too eager and courageous. I would like to see a similar approach.

 

[Sumlit]

But it didn't "stump our game", unless you think of "our game" as the old outdated way of playing possession. "Our game" worked like a charm yesterday, we should have won 4-2 with Neymars disallowed goal. I welcome other teams to attack like this, be my guest, we'll counterattack their asses into oblivion.

Barca's entire offense in that first half consistent only of 3 counters, of which all 3 resulted in goals. Perfect efficiency hid the nullification of play. Not even perfect either since a referee error took away one goal and allow for another to happen. Barca's game was stumped right enough. And again, why argue with that tired "old outdated way of playing possession" premise, when Barca were even unable to play like they did vs Atleti in the previous 2 matches just days before.

But fair enough, you guys want to ride the high of the win and not acknowledge the issue exposed by the high pressure on our CBs by Atleti in the first half. Let's hope when it happens again our front 3 can be as perfectly efficient on their counters and opportunities as they were.