Luis Enrique

[Kohe321]

Barca's entire offense in that first half consistent only of 3 counters, of which all 3 resulted in goals. Perfect efficiency hid the nullification of play. Not even perfect either since a referee error took away one goal and allow for another to happen. Barca's game was stumped right enough. And again, why argue with that tired "old outdated way of playing possession" premise, when Barca were even unable to play like they did vs Atleti in the previous 2 matches just days before.

But fair enough, you guys want to ride the high of the win and not acknowledge the issue exposed by the high pressure on our CBs by Atleti in the first half. Let's hope when it happens again our front 3 can be as perfectly efficient on their counters and opportunities as they were.

We had more than 3 chances in the first half, if not as shots on target (I haven't seen the stats from that half), then at least in the sense of many semi-chances that easily could have become more. Saying that "we were just efficient" as a way of undermining the goals we scored as if they were somehow underserved is a really weak argument.

And it's funny that you mention the previous two games against Atletico as examples of how we should play, as these are extremely recent games that are a part of this same playingstyle - the only reason it looked different yesterday evening was, as I have already explained, that Atletico played like dirty crooks coupled with an insane intensity stemming from the fact that they had to score goals to win. They threw everything but the kitchen sink at us, and we still managed to beat them decisively at their home turf.

That's 3 victories in a row against Simeones Atletico, and this was perhaps the most difficult one, so sorry if I don't share your feeling that "Barca played poor".

 

[Leo_Messi]

Interesting discussion.

Here is how I look at it.

Atlético were playing at home. Estadio Vicente Calderón is one of the most difficult stadiums to play in for any club. Atlético were moreover forced to win the game to qualify for the semifinals and thus started very aggressively as they were supposed to do in such a situation. The quality of the pitch was very, very poor. The approach of the Atlético players was very physical as well.

Considering all this then Atlético did not really create much. Torres' goal after some 40 seconds was down to a careless pass by Mascherano and a bit of luck. Their penalty was non-existent which leaves us with the two chances that Griezmann had.

The tactical approach was a correct one given the fact that our midfield is nowhere near as strong as during Pep's tenure and given the form Messi and Neymar are in.

It's simple. If Lucho wants to fully utilize the strengths of Messi, Neymar and Suárez against teams like Atlético (away from home) that usually sit deep but in this case HAVE to attack then a counterattacking approach is ideal.

I do agree that we have to control the midfield battle more against other top teams in the future. Especially against City away next month. Having said that then the renewed faith in the counterattacking element of the game is very encouraging.

Also this discussion is mostly only relevant against other top dogs. Against lesser teams FCB will dominate possession completely as usual. That said then this approach is not always the best as seen against Getafe away. RM for instance are very good at punishing lesser teams away from home on the counter when those home teams get too eager and courageous. I would like to see a similar approach.

In short I welcome this tactical change with open arms. It's very refreshing to see after the horror that was last season. So far it has proven successful too. It needs redefining though and it's far from the "finished product".

 

[BBZ8800]

Barca's entire offense in that first half consistent only of 3 counters, of which all 3 resulted in goals

But again, so what?
We played 3 matches against Atletico, we won all 3.
First half yesterday was our weakest half, and still we scored 3 Goals.
Ok, you may say that it was a pure luck, but still, even without yesterday's match, we won 2 out 2/or 2 out of 3 matches against Atletico in a Month.

Now, do you remember a match on the last day of the last Season?
We played at home, we KNEW we have to win.
We had the possession all the match, but we played like a total crap.
And even the only goal was more like a solo effort from Alexis than a good action.
Also, we played 6 matches against Atletico. We won none, right?
And all those La liga matches against poor teams in the 2nd part of the last season, where we had the possession all the time and had like 3 shots in 90 minutes (and played 0:0 or 1:1).

Now, I agree, in Pep's era we both had possession and we were lethal.
But then again, we had the best generation ever, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta on their prime, plus, NEVER forget this: teams didn't know how to defend against that (new) style back then.
Later our players weren't on their prime, teams learned how to defend, and we started to be extremely sterile and poor.

Your post sounds like we played like a total crap yesterday, and as if we are moving away from some awesome system so that we could play the current system.
If we will agree that Pep's era will never return because we will never have the opponents who don't know how to defend against it, then all you can play is either:
1. some kind of replica of Pep's style, which we tried, and it is not good
2. something like this

We played Pep's system for too long and we reached the point where nothing what we do is good enough to break our opponents.
Our opponents, on the other hand, had 5-6-7-8 years to learn how to neutralize us.

Now we have a brand new system.
It is fresh and new, and teams don't have a clue what to do against us currently.
-- true, they will find some tricks over time and they will defend better
-- but then again, we will have to evolve further and find some extra options, or to raise our current game to even higher level, so that they won't be able to stop us

-- of course, in one moment, no matter how good we will be, after 3-4-5 years, we will again reach the point as in Pep's era and we will have to find some new/different system.

In that sense, yes, other teams will learn eventually how to neutralize us, but also, we have a lot of room for improvement till that moment, to raise our play in this new system to a much higher level.

So, you can't say only:
= opponent's will learn how to cause us problem
=> because we have a lot of room for improvement even till that moment and even after that moment

But fair enough, you guys want to ride the high of the win and not acknowledge the issue exposed by the high pressure on our CBs by Atleti in the first half. Let's hope when it happens again our front 3 can be as perfectly efficient on their counters and opportunities as they were.

But compared to what?

Basically, I hear you saying now: "Guys, you will see, with this way, we will lose some matches against big teams."
= of course that we will

We were losing matches even with Pep.
And we were losing tons of matches with Tito, Tata and Lucho till now.
More or less, we were losing ALL big matches in the last 2-3 years...

Again, you make it sound as if we are leaving some system in which we were always dominating and winning for some system in which we will lose SOME matches one day.

And in reality, we are moving away from a system in which we were a joke in Europe lately and in which we struggled on any away match in La liga.
=> to a system where we have 7-8 wins in a row currently, and we are looking very, very good

So, yes:
1. we will lose some matches
2. sometimes we will have problems
3. but we are much better now
4. and there is a lot of room for improvement in our team/system, we are playing it only for 3-4 weeks

 

[putogusiluz8]

I think what ya'll are trying to convey is simply this: Balance and flexibility. Taking the game as it comes, not always trying to control everything.

Like Kohe said, tiki taka often gave us a false sense of control, whereas yesterday by not controlling the game we ended up controlling the game hehe if that makes sense. It goes back to an old philosophy in Zen that applies to anything in life. "Notice the stiff tree is easily cracked, while the bamboo survives by bending with the wind." We need to be flexible, balanced, and willing to mold and changed to each game taking our strengths to the max, not a rigid style, but an inclusion of all things good and discard all things useless, for example possession for the sake of possession aka endless sideway passing etc.

 

[Kohe321]

Fantastic post BBZ8800, you hit the nail on the head.

Spot on from the guy posting just above me as well.

 

[CuleLife4Life]

Some great posts on here. It'll be interesting to see how we proceed with this. Especially when facing bigger teams like Atletico. Like someone one here said, playing tiki taka gave us a false sense of control. Yesterday we got to play to our strengths.

My only issue is what if Xavi pressures Lucho to switch back like he did with Tata. For us fans on here winning on counters doesn't seem to be a problem but Xavi has been such a strong opponent of stupid possession based football that we've sucked at for 3-4 seasons that I think he would say something to Lucho about our "philosophy."

I'll never forget when we lost to Bayern either 4-0 or after the final 7-0, he made a comment about us having more possession that pissed me off because he made it seem like that was a big deal. And when Real beat us, he said they always played on the counter. I really think he may say something to Lucho and he is such a big figure at Barca that people will listen to him.

 

[Ini8]

Some great posts on here. It'll be interesting to see how we proceed with this. Especially when facing bigger teams like Atletico. Like someone one here said, playing tiki taka gave us a false sense of control. Yesterday we got to play to our strengths.

My only issue is what if Xavi pressures Lucho to switch back like he did with Tata. For us fans on here winning on counters doesn't seem to be a problem but Xavi has been such a strong opponent of stupid possession based football that we've sucked at for 3-4 seasons that I think he would say something to Lucho about our "philosophy."

I'll never forget when we lost to Bayern either 4-0 or after the final 7-0, he made a comment about us having more possession that pissed me off because he made it seem like that was a big deal. And when Real beat us, he said they always played on the counter. I really think he may say something to Lucho and he is such a big figure at Barca that people will listen to him.

Then I expect Lucho to remind him who the boss is and try to talk some sense into him. Lucho isn't oblivious about our philosophy, to me he seems pragmatic.

 

[barcanuck]

At least the stubbon Lucho has figured out that he needs a fixed 11 for the big matches instead of changing the crap out of formations and such. Still want to see the lineup we put out against PSG though. That was the big boys lineup with Pique Bartra Mathiueu at the back and Masche Busi in the mid.

 

[Egert]

Yeah, Lucho isn't like Tata. Lucho definately has more power than Tata did here and I don't think that Xavi is going to say anything.

 

[Gasgas]

Sumlit Sumlit
It was all tactical, we had to play that way because of the situation, you watched the first leg, we played totally different and this is what we need, being able to rise to the occassion and do what we can in the given conditions.
We only conceded 3 or so chances away to ferrocious atleti,
What happened last time when we played build up from the back, they rattled our post three times, scored one, forced pinto into three or more saves in one on ones (gabi, cristian rodriguez and someone else) and how many clear chances did we create.

Why cant you see the improvement fellow commenter? What is not sustainable is thinking that this is 2008-2011 and that we will get away with building up from the back!

Unpredictability is unsustainable? Then i dont know what is!

Apologies if i used harsh language

 

[BBZ8800]

At least the stubbon Lucho has figured out that he needs a fixed 11 for the big matches instead of changing the crap out of formations and such. Still want to see the lineup we put out against PSG though. That was the big boys lineup with Pique Bartra Mathiueu at the back and Masche Busi in the mid.

That is a different system.
Now, with a new system, we shouldn't experiment further.
This is the moment to stick with a new system and see where will it take us.
(We have a momentum now)

 

[serghei]

I don't know why you're making it one or the other when I am clearly asking for it to be a mixture.

What we saw in the first half of this game vs Atletico is not something I believe is conducive to sustained success for this team. While it is a positive to have this new-found prowess on counters, and while the team certainly needs a faster paced play, what we saw for the first 45 minutes vs Atletico was smothering pressure completely stifling and baffling Barca's ability to play from the back, fast or otherwise. They reduced Barca's to divided long balls.

Barca's is not always going to be as efficient with their chances as they were in that first half.

A balance needs to be struck and they need to come up with a strategy to ease pressure when opponents look to pressure the CBs and cut the build up play from the back.

In the end what you want is angles. A near flawless team like the 2011 one didn't need angles because it was too good -- basically, we played our game and that was too much for everyone.

Build from the back? Why do that, when you can quickly pass the ball to Neymar, Messi and Suarez and engage them in a 3 vs 3 affair? Why should we bother to create space, when we could just let the other team create it for us by pushing their men forward. If Lucho can make our defence to hold up a little better when pressured, we would be devastating on the counter.

When we need to, we can also show our true style. See the 3-1 win against Atletico. But when we can benefit more from a different tactic, we need to know we can do that too, and do it damn well I could add. And our opponents also need to know we can adjust for a change, because lately everyone's been bragging they got Barca's number.

 

[Sumlit]

I feel people continue to respond to me arguing something that I never brought up in the first place, then attributing me with sentiments that I never expressed. So for clarifications I'll say again as simply as I can:

Yes I like counters.
Yes I like the more direct attacks.
Yes I like the speed in attack.
No I don't want sterile possession just for the sake of it.

I never brought up the way the team played 2-3 years ago. You guys did. This was never my point.
I never asked for overwhelming possession. Just control.
I never asked for one system or the other. Only balance.

My original point was my concern with the way the team responded to getting pressure on their CBs, and the midfield inability to ease that pressure. This is something that can be exploited by other teams fairly easily and needs to be worked on.

This team is not equipped to sit back and soak pressure. If it gets pressed deep and cannot get out of it under control to ease the pressure (50/50 clearances and long balls put you back under pressure quickly) I fully believe they cannot sustain winning this way.

So again, I am NOT saying the team needs to go back to the previous system, dominate possession, slow down play, etc etc. I AM saying they need to deal with deep pressure better and get out of it under more control and less wildly than they did those first 45 mins.

 

[mssarm]

I think yesterday's game was more of tactical solution rather than new playing style for Barca. I don't think you can switch from possession style play to counterattacking team overnight. It was a tactic implemented just for that particular game. LE knew what ATM is going to do and came with good solution to deal with it. ATM wasn't expecting it, they were surprised when Barca gave them the ball and let them ran with it. Again LE knew exactly what Cholo is going to do that's why it worked. I don't it will be effective for RM clash. BTW Cholo was tactically outplayed in 2 out of 3 games.

 

[KingMessi]

So again, I am NOT saying the team needs to go back to the previous system, dominate possession, slow down play, etc etc. I AM saying they need to deal with deep pressure better and get out of it under more control and less wildly than they did those first 45 mins.

I think, that if Lucho wants the team to absorb pressure, then the setup he had against PSG in the Camp Nou win is better suited.

3 centerbacks with Mascherano in midfield is, in my opinion, better suited to absorbing pressure from an opposition side and then bypassing the midfield to get the ball to the attack.