TornAndFrayed
Banned
Can't disagree after that OM job he did. Bielsa is loco. But his cohort of disciples are more appealing.
Luis Enrique
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Devils
Senior Member
Maybe 10 years ago Bielsa would have been a good choice. These days he is known more for his meltdowns than his managerial accomplishments.
I have no idea how people on here mentioning that lightweight Tuchel either. He's imploding this season in a much more spectacular fashion than Lucho is.
I have no idea how people on here mentioning that lightweight Tuchel either. He's imploding this season in a much more spectacular fashion than Lucho is.
God Serena
New member
BBZ is right. A total squad overall +promotions from La Masia (Marlon, Alena, Samper(?), Palencia) is probably what is needed to make us go on another run of greatness. The question is, who stays, and who goes?
I forgot putting an emoticon
Barcilliant
Senior Member
On A temporary basis I would take Rijkaard back iñ a heartbeat. He would transform this team immediatel
y.
We have the players, they are not being used correctly.
y.
We have the players, they are not being used correctly.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
This will happen (imo) either way later in this season or in the next season, so there will be time for talking about that.
For the beginning:
-- out: Masch, Mathieu, Vidal, Paco
But a lot of other players have to go then.
People will say: but he is good, he can improve for majority of our players.
Anyway, for example, look at this, Barca in 2002/03:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002%E2%80%9303_FC_Barcelona_season
-- then Laporta+Rijkaard+Txiki came in a summer of 2003, and during two summers (2003 and 2004) they sold almost the whole team from a previous era
From that team who played in early 2003, this is what happened in a summer of 2004:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_FC_Barcelona_season
Sold from a 2002/03 team:
-- Gk Bonano (age 33 when sold), Enke (27)
-- defenders: Christanval (25 when we have given up on him), Reiziger (31 when sold), F. De Boer (33 when sold), P. Andersson (33 when sold), Sorin (27 when we didn't want to loan him anymore)
-- midfielders: Cocu (34 when sold), Riquelme (25 when we have given up on him), Fabio Rochemback (24 when we sold him), Mendieta (29 when we sold him), Luis Enrique (34)
-- attackers: Saviola (aged 23 when we given up on him), Kluivert (28 when sold), Overmars (31 when sold), Dani Garcia (29 when we sold him)
16 players gone in 2 summers.
Interesting: none of them was a La Masia player.
Players who stayed for a new era: Valdes (21), Motta (21), Puyol (25), Xavi (23), Iniesta (19), Gabri (24), Oleguer (23), Messi (16), Gerard Lopez (24, domestic player)
Foreigners who stayed: - (zero players)
And this is how the current Barca was born. We sold everything (which was not working for a few years) and started from zero with new, young domestic players accompanied by world class superstars (Ronaldinho, Etoo, Deco etc).
We don't have to be that drastic this time, but a lot of foreigners who are either not good enough or who lost motivation will have to go before a new era (Rakitic, Mats?, Neymar?, Digne?, Cillessen? etc)
BBZ8800
Senior Member
And a one less depressing post, we will have El Classico this weekend, so maybe some fans are interested at remembering some classic Nou Camp matches from the past while we wait for the weekend.
If anyone is interested, these are 3 back-to-back Nou Camp classicos from 1999, 2000 and 2001.
A funny thing is, a lot of legendary players are in our team in those matches:
Van Gaal on our bench, Luis Enrique, Pep Guardiola, a God Rivaldo, traitor Figo, Psg's director Kluivert, current coaches Abelardo, Frank De Boer, Cocu, young Puyol and Xavi.
So, here are nice 10-minutes from highlights from those days:
1998/99:
1999/00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAeYgoBuSF8
2000/01:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZVilPvhP0U
If anyone is interested, these are 3 back-to-back Nou Camp classicos from 1999, 2000 and 2001.
A funny thing is, a lot of legendary players are in our team in those matches:
Van Gaal on our bench, Luis Enrique, Pep Guardiola, a God Rivaldo, traitor Figo, Psg's director Kluivert, current coaches Abelardo, Frank De Boer, Cocu, young Puyol and Xavi.
So, here are nice 10-minutes from highlights from those days:
1998/99:
1999/00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAeYgoBuSF8
2000/01:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZVilPvhP0U
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Raketa10
Senior Member
Why the hell would you get rid of Masch??? He is crucial to us. And what is with this "foreigners have to go" nonsense?
It doesn't matter if someone is a foreigner or not, what matters is whether he is good or not. Do not forget that majority of Barca's best players in history were foreigners (Messi, Ronaldinho, Deco, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Eto'o, Romario, Koeman, Stoichkov...)
It really frustrates me when people are trying to shit all over Neymar, Rakitic or Mats but when La Masia players (Busquets, Alba, Roberto etc.) play like shit that is ok because they are homegrown players. WTF? If it wasn't for these foreign players we wouldn't have won half of our trophies.
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George_Costanza
Active member
Almost every club that he left the fans campaigned in his favor. Since he left Chile NT, he only managed smaller teams with financial and management instabilities. Both Athletic Bilbao and Marseille sold several key players which led him to have a conflict with club's excutive managament. I don't blame him and I don't think he will face the same issues in a bigger club.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Foreign players will lose their motivation and love for playing for the same team faster than a local boy.
I am not against foreign players, but once they are done: thanks and good luck.
Ronaldinho was here for 5 seasons, he was gone at the age of 28.
He lost motivation after more or less 3 seasons, and his last 2 seasons were a pain to watch.
Deco was here only for 4 seasons.
His last 1-2 seasons were also pretty horrible, with zero motivation.
He was sold aged 31, and his motivation for football in general and for Barca were done around the age 29, 30.
R9 was here for 1 season only.
Rivaldo was here for 5 seasons, the same as Ronaldinho. Sold at the age of 30.
More or less, this is how it goes with foreign players. They usually come and stay for much shorter periods, usually 3-4-5 years.
Last 10-12 years were actually anomaly where majority of core players stayed for 5-10 years here.
Again, you have to look at the context: this was the best generation of our club in our history. We got the one and only Messi, plus Xavi-Iniesta, 2 best midfielder's in Barca's history plus a lion-heart Puyol.
We dominated, we played beautiful, we were winning trophy after trophy both on a domestic and international level, like never in our history.
There was no need for too much changes. The only goal was to keep the winning core of a team here for the longest as possible.
That generation was an exception, and not a rule.
In "normal" times when things are hot and cold in each new season, normal top-clubs are changing coaches, president, directors and players much faster.
So, once when Messi-Xavi-Iniesta trio will be gone, we surely won't have too many core players who will stay here for 10 years, like in the current era.
Look at any other foreigner from recent Barca's (20-30-40) years old history:
Romario: played here for 2 seasons
Stoichkov: played here for 5 seasons, and later returned for additional 2 seasons
Michael Laudrup: played here for 5 seasons
Even Johan Cruijff: played here "only" for 5 seasons, left the club aged 31.
We never had in our history foreigners who stayed here for longer than 5 years, from this or that reason (bad form, low motivation, fight with coaches, older age etc) till the current megasuccessful era.
Once again, there is something psychological or in player's DNA.
Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta=is there any other club in the world where they would want to play? No
They will stay here forever, and they will leave only if a club forces them to leave.
On the other hand:
Rakitic? If we will offer him huge wages, he will stay. If not, he will be open to sign for another club his last huge contract in his career.
Neymar? Do you think that Barca is ONLY place where he is willing to play?
Mascherano openly asked to leave for the last 2 summers.
Dani Alves wanted to try some new country/league.
When was the last time when a local kid (Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta) wanted to leave?
Only VV wanted to leave in the end.
He is probably the only La Masia player in the last 30-40 years who was a starter and suddenly wanted to leave Barca.
When I am talking about motivation, if for example:
-- Rakitic, Busi and Pique are all low on motivation.
What do you think, who has the highest chances to regain longterm motivation (for the next 3-4 years) to stay here and play?
Rakitic or Busi+Pique?
Imo, of course that Busi+Pique.
This is their club, this is their home, this is their city, here are their families, friends. This is their culture and climate. Home sweet home. They were raised all their life to love and play only for Barca.
Raki is a Croatian guy, born in Switzerland and raised in Germany.
With foreign players=if they play well=keep them.
But once they lose the motivation, a club should consider changes.
With (proven) domestic players (Pique, Busi), you can't sell them after 1-2 weaker seasons.
** Anyway, your post is a prime example of why a club can't move forward.
When I was writing my post, I knew that a lot of people would come and say: we can't sell our team, like:
-- Mats: we need to give him more chances
-- Neymar: we can't sell him, he is our future
-- Rakitic: he had only 1-2 weaker seasons, let's wait to se if he can regain his form from 2014/15
-- Digne: he is a new guy, let's give him a few more seasons
-- Masch: he was good for years, we can't sell him
I mean, if you don't want to sell (any of) these players, whom will you sell then in order to rebuild and start a new cycle?
Pique=you can't sell him
Busi=no way
Iniesta=no
Messi=never
Roberto=he is good and La Masia boy
Denis=he is young and domestic. It would be a waste to sell him right away
Rafinha=useful
Alba=okish
With that way of thinking where you can't sell nor domestic boys nor foreigners=you will be locked with this ageing/dying team for the next 3-4 years (with only 2-3 new signings) until finally everyone will give up from them (after 3-4 seasons of huge failures).
** Anyway, do you wanna bet that this season will be a huge failure and that from this moment, we will sink only lower and lower (weaker and weaker play, form, lots of fights, Lucho losing control, no trophies etc)?
If something happened 100s of times in a history of any club (cycles, rise and fall), how do you expect that our club will magically avoid this fall and the end of this famous cycle?
Especially since so many factors around our club are textbook examples of a cycle nearing to an end.
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Raketa10
Senior Member
The thing you are forgetting is the fact Xavi - Iniesta generation was once in 50 years. If we would rely only on our homegrown players at the moment we would be an average team even in La Liga. This generation does not have such quality. Also bare in mind that all of these foreigners who stayed only for 4-5 years are the reason Barca is a world brand! Do you honestly think we would won all of our 5 CL trophies without Ronaldinho, Messi, Et'o, Deco??? They were not here as a squad fillings they were CRUCIAL part of the team! I respect La Masia but honestly without those foreign players even Xavi-Iniesta generation would not be GOAT team. And yes we can't sell Neymar at the moment simply because there is no better player in his position today. You can hate him or not but he is today one of the best players in the world and that's a fact. It would be also stupid to sell Mats at this age. And let's say we sell Neymar, Rakitic, Mats, Masche, Digne...who would you buy to fill in these spots?
I support selling players who do not have motivation or are declining but you mentioned ONLY foreigners. For example I would for sure sell one of Rafinha/Denis since they are way to similar and i would promote Alena next year.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
I am not saying that we shouldn't have foreigners.
We should, but only if they are top class players plus motivated.
(or if they are good but cheap squad players).
If they either aren't world class (Mathieu, Vermaelen), or if they are world class but aren't motivated (Neymar, Rakitic, Mascherano), well, you know my answer then.
About Neymar, I don't know why are you mentioning him alongside Ronaldinho and similar guys.
Neymar will never reach those heights and he will never lead our team, since Messi will stay here longer than Neymar probably.
About our oldies, the same as with Tiki-taka after Pep.
People were still saying: Tiki-Taka is not dead, we need to give it one more chance etc.
So, we lived in a denial during Tito's season that Tiki-Taka is not dead.
And we finally gave up from it during Tata and moved on to a new style under Lucho.
We will probably see the same with our current rooster.
Majority of people are not ready yet to accept that this team is dead (or dying, in a best case scenario and coming to an inevitable end).
So, people will give a few more chances to MSN, Mats, and to majority of our players.
But then, if we won't win La liga or a CL this season (very likely), this will be a poor season.
In the summer, we will sell some players (probably only Mathieu, Masch, Vidal, Arda and maybe someone like Paco/Rafinha/Cillessen).
In the next season, people will expect wonders from our dying team (because we will have a new coach and maybe 2-3 new signings), but 90% of our rooster will be the same (aka dead).
It is again very likely that the same team will offer as equally as horrible results in the next season (in fact, we will probably sink deeper and deeper each new Month), and then after 2 trophyless seasons (2017 and 2018), in a summer of 2018, the board and directors (after a lot of pressure from fans and media) will finally do a huge overhaul and sell a looooot of current players (for example: Arda, Neymar, Mats, sending Iniesta to retirement, Rakitic, one out of Denis/Rafinha, Paco, Digne, Cillessen, maybe Gomes, Mascherano, Mathieu etc).
Only players like Busi, Messi, L. Suarez, Roberto, Alba, Pique, Umtiti (Denis/Gomes) will probably stay.
We'll finally rely on Alena and 2-3-4 new youngsters, and we will buy 5-8 new players aged 20-26 and start over.
You'll see over time, imo, there is NO WAY that we will avoid this.
The question is only whether we will start it already in a summer of 2017' if this season will be poor, or we will wait and wait and wait and hope that the current team will magically start to play like in 2009 or in 2015.
But also, the board won't wait too long and have players like Neymar, Iniesta, Suarez, Rakitic on insanely high wages:
If those players won't win trophies anymore.
(Insane wages=zero trophies)
** Just look at our team from January of 2016 till today:
= it is a free fall
We have been worse and worse each new Month.
We have been crap in a spring of 2016, when we lost 10 points advantage over Real and when we lost against AM in a CL.
But look at us now.
We are today waaaaaay worse than in a spring of 2016 (when we thought that we are poor).
If a team will continue it's free fall (and we have all requirements for that: Lucho's 3rd season, key players getting older and older, low motivation, Real and opponents having a momentum, injuries to our team, media and fans turning against Lucho/some players/team in general), then just imagine where we will be in 4-5 Months from now.
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spark
New member
I think you have to be able to separate what you want to happen from what realistically will happen. Accounting for the fact that starting from next summer 600 million will be spent on renovating the stadium, they simply are not going to gut the team of 15+ players a year from now. Nor would any sane football club. They already made their bets for the future squad wise and changes would be minor reshuffling here or there.That type of overhaul is exactly how you go into free fall when you have a huge anchor chained to your neck in form of a new stadium.I can understand having these thoughts if something similar to spring 2013 had happened but it hasn't and even if it did the first thing they would do is get a new manager.
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