Devils
Senior Member
Only one of those 5 players you've mentioned has been consistently good this season.
That all falls on Lucho.
Luis Enrique
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
Only one of those 5 players you've mentioned has been consistently good this season.
That all falls on Lucho.
xXKonan
Senior Member
Lucho's worst enemy is himself. I thought after we won the treble, Lucho finally learned some much needed lessons in squad management and a decent idea on how to implement a system/tactics. but obviously that didn't happen and instead he let the treble success get right to his head and thought ideas were bullet proof and since then it was all down hill.
Everyone knows things change in Football rather quickly. His system of chaos and MSN brilliance may have worked at some point but teams eventually started to figure it all out and find ways to contain MSN and press our already weak midfield to an oblivion. But Lucho despite all this did very little to no changes in his system and thinks nothing is "wrong".
The Midfielders we brought in since he arrived all of them don't fit what we truly need but that didn't stop Lucho. He wants Midfielders who are physically tall/strong and are work horses. He values all that over technical ability.
To him MSN is his holy grail, He rigged the team to such a point and without them we are fucked. Which brings me to my next point, MSN is a lot weaker than it once was now and even with them on the field we still struggle. Without a real Midfield to back them up the system or whatever is left is no longer functioning.
For me I find the "Lucho is a closet Madridista sent to destroy Barcelona from the Inside" conspiracy to be one of the stupidest things I ever read. But my take on Lucho, is he let the success get to his head and combine his Personality from his playing days, you get a man who lives by the "My way or the Highway" mindset to the extreme.
Everyone knows things change in Football rather quickly. His system of chaos and MSN brilliance may have worked at some point but teams eventually started to figure it all out and find ways to contain MSN and press our already weak midfield to an oblivion. But Lucho despite all this did very little to no changes in his system and thinks nothing is "wrong".
The Midfielders we brought in since he arrived all of them don't fit what we truly need but that didn't stop Lucho. He wants Midfielders who are physically tall/strong and are work horses. He values all that over technical ability.
To him MSN is his holy grail, He rigged the team to such a point and without them we are fucked. Which brings me to my next point, MSN is a lot weaker than it once was now and even with them on the field we still struggle. Without a real Midfield to back them up the system or whatever is left is no longer functioning.
For me I find the "Lucho is a closet Madridista sent to destroy Barcelona from the Inside" conspiracy to be one of the stupidest things I ever read. But my take on Lucho, is he let the success get to his head and combine his Personality from his playing days, you get a man who lives by the "My way or the Highway" mindset to the extreme.
Lelouch vi Britannia
Banned
Indeed. If he can't motivate the players any more, then he doesn't really have anything to offer, since that was his strength to begin with.
BarcaOG
Banned
no, not 'everything'. what you are implying is equally as absurd--do you really believe that anything and everything that happens on the pitch after the referee blows the whistle is Lucho's fault? missed tackles, poor clearances, missed shots, bad passes? really? everything down to the coach? Please. these are world-class footballers. managers have a big influence, but it is not absolute. all i am saying is that our shortfalls this season are the result of a number of things, one of which i do not deny is Lucho. Messi, Neymar and Suarez were less than stellar over two legs against Juventus, for example, but they played more or less in their natural positions. i don't think it is unreasonable to claim that our exit to Juve resulted from both managerial mistakes and an underwhelming team performance. Or do you think our players played some of their best football against Juve?
F
FlaFCB
Guest
Lack of a clear system and tactics make the players confused on the pitch too. Excess of rotations, bad line-ups. All this combined make a team lose coherence, chemistry and momentum. rm with benitez as coach was the same. zidane comes in and they won the CL. Problem here is our board wouldn't fire lucho, they'd keep him if he wasn't leaving on his own.
God Serena
New member
Our players perform poorly because of the system. A poor pass is to be expected from players of all levels, but if that poor pass is highlighted a lot more in a system that doesn't allow us many opportunities on the ball. Most of the mistakes that happen in a game can be covered by decent tactics and a consistent formation, neither of which we have. And the mistakes we wouldn't be able to do anything about regardless are usually the fault of Lucho's lineups. Mathieu causing us to concede or Gomes butchering our midfield are on Lucho for obsessing over these inferior squad players. Missing shots wouldn't be such a big deal if we had a system that earned us more opportunities to score. It's not like the teams playing us are just putting every shot in the back of the net, it's that they can easily get as many shots as they need by just passing to the nearest open man to take a shot, while we have to rely on a godly pass from Messi to get a chance and if it misses we're up a creek because our midfield doesn't contribute in the attack or the defense.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I still don't buy it.
Before Zidane, Real wasn't able to play consistently good in La liga and a Cl.
So, let's say that Real went from average to world class under Zidane.
So, under Benitez they couldn't know that they could play way, way better.
With Barca, on the other hand, majority of these players played under Pep and in Lucho's first season.
I find it unbelievable that no one from players like Xavi, Busi, Iniesta, Messi didn't come to the idea and say: hey coach, can we try Pep's system for a few games again or YOUR'S winning system from 2015, instead of this?
Rakitic can't control the ball anymore, it can't be all on Lucho.
Iniesta makes zero influence, that can't be on Lucho.
On the other hand, Neymar played at a rw for a few minutes against Juve, and he was still influental.
So, it is not only about Lucho and a system, but a part of our players aged, lost abilities, lost motivation and they suck in general.
Ok, it was up to Lucho to buy better players, but if a new coach will have to play with granny Iniesta and Rakitic, we will surely be a crap, no matter how good or bad a coach will be.
I agree with BarcaOG.
And as I said, I find it unbelievable that none of players talked to a coach or tried something different on their own.
I doubt that Lucho told them: don't play triangles anymore, don't make a good movement, don't press, play like a crap.
Ok, Lucho applied some of his ideas.
But saying that it was all on Lucho is like saying that Lucho is guilty for Messi missing a sitter in a 2nd half or Neymar having a worse finishing form than half of posters on this forum.
My personal prediction is that we will play EXACTLY the same in a summer and autumn, until a new coach will kick a lot of players from a lineup like Iniesta, Rakitic, maybe Busi, Masch, Mathieu, maybe even one out of Msn etc.
Comparisons with Real don't make sense imo.
Real had a young team with players who can actually run and follow the orders from a coach.
Real has a team of motivated players since they haven't been winning for 10 years.
Real has players who can apply plan b and who can play at least two different styles of play.
Not to mention that Real actually has more skillful midfielders.
So, what can a new coach do with this set of players without huge overhaul?
1. These guys can't run and are very, very old
2. Motivation of majority of these guys is lost forever
3. Majority of our players just suck, regardless of Lucho
4. You can play only some copy of Pep's football again with this set of players because we have a team of short and weak players, as always
Last edited:
serghei
Senior Member
Mass players underperforming is managerial problem. It ceases to be individual and becomes an environment/platform issue.
You can look at a player's performances as being influenced by a conglomeration of factors:
1. Player's quality.
2. Tactics being handed to him by the manager.
3. Age, as in fitness level.
4. Hunger to win
5. Form, as in every other element that affects his performance and is not named separately in this list (family troubles, poor diet, legal problems, unhealthy lifestyle etc.).
You look at that list, and you see problems in all areas. Some big, some fixable, and some that you think could be down to a factor, but in reality are caused by another one.
I would say that no3 and no5 aren't down to Lucho. Lucho can't influence players' age, nor their extra football problems that might affect how they play and how comitted they are. Absurd to claim otherwise. It could also be a problem of fitness coach. Maybe our older player could be sharper under better preparations.
I would say that no1 is partly his blame, but more blame has to be put on the sportive director. Robert Fernandez and, of course, Albert Soler.
No 4 is his fault normally, but at Barcelona every manager would sooner or later show an inability to motivate their squad, even though it's one of the most important things that a manager has to do - ensure that the squad is sharp and motivated to win.
But no2, tactics, and everything related to tactics (including man selection, player management, judging a player's value and his ability or inability to integrate in the team under the tactical instructions being given to them and so on). That is exclusively on Lucho.
And I would go as far as to say that no2 and no4 are the 2 factors that caused most of our problems this season. Chaotic tactics, no sense of order being felt in the squad, a state of unsureness that affects both the confidence of the team. It's very hard to come up with steady performances in a proven unsteady environment.
So, bottom line. Our problems are mostly managerial. Yes, we have two positions where we can do better. But we shouldn't be losing 3-0 to Juventus. Does Juventus have better players? Is Khedira better or much better than Rakitic. Is Dybala better than Messi? No.
We have a better team than both PSG and Juventus. But how PSG and Juventus prepared the match in Paris and in Turin was superior in every possible way. Better tactics, sharper players, more cohesiveness, a more unitary tactical plan, and an overall feeling that the ideas about how the game should look in defence and attack were treated not on player level, but on team level. You could see a tactical plan that all players were fully comitted to.
You can look at a player's performances as being influenced by a conglomeration of factors:
1. Player's quality.
2. Tactics being handed to him by the manager.
3. Age, as in fitness level.
4. Hunger to win
5. Form, as in every other element that affects his performance and is not named separately in this list (family troubles, poor diet, legal problems, unhealthy lifestyle etc.).
You look at that list, and you see problems in all areas. Some big, some fixable, and some that you think could be down to a factor, but in reality are caused by another one.
I would say that no3 and no5 aren't down to Lucho. Lucho can't influence players' age, nor their extra football problems that might affect how they play and how comitted they are. Absurd to claim otherwise. It could also be a problem of fitness coach. Maybe our older player could be sharper under better preparations.
I would say that no1 is partly his blame, but more blame has to be put on the sportive director. Robert Fernandez and, of course, Albert Soler.
No 4 is his fault normally, but at Barcelona every manager would sooner or later show an inability to motivate their squad, even though it's one of the most important things that a manager has to do - ensure that the squad is sharp and motivated to win.
But no2, tactics, and everything related to tactics (including man selection, player management, judging a player's value and his ability or inability to integrate in the team under the tactical instructions being given to them and so on). That is exclusively on Lucho.
And I would go as far as to say that no2 and no4 are the 2 factors that caused most of our problems this season. Chaotic tactics, no sense of order being felt in the squad, a state of unsureness that affects both the confidence of the team. It's very hard to come up with steady performances in a proven unsteady environment.
So, bottom line. Our problems are mostly managerial. Yes, we have two positions where we can do better. But we shouldn't be losing 3-0 to Juventus. Does Juventus have better players? Is Khedira better or much better than Rakitic. Is Dybala better than Messi? No.
We have a better team than both PSG and Juventus. But how PSG and Juventus prepared the match in Paris and in Turin was superior in every possible way. Better tactics, sharper players, more cohesiveness, a more unitary tactical plan, and an overall feeling that the ideas about how the game should look in defence and attack were treated not on player level, but on team level. You could see a tactical plan that all players were fully comitted to.
Last edited:
Total-Football
Senior Member
Ranieri was like that .. I remember how he fucked up Valencia big time back then with excessive rotations which have led to disasterous results. Of course he got the sack. I think Ranieri learned a lot from his failures thus the Wonder season last year.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
About motivation, I would say that a larger part of it is natural, like 70%.
While 30% can be raised by s coach and an environment.
The same as ageing.
You can influence and slow down your ageing if you werent injured, if you train well and live healthy.
So, some will be finished aged 30 due to their default nature, injuries and unhealthy life, while some will be good aged 35 again due to their original natural Dna, healthy life and no injuries.
But still, once you are aged 35 or 38, nothing can help you. A coach, healthy life, zero injuries.
You are done because your body can't run anymore.
Imo, the same is with a motivation. Lucho and an environment can influence a motivation to some extent. But when your motivational batteries are drained, you are done.
Again, remember Ronaldinho. When he lost motivation, no coach in the world could have helped him.
So, imo, imagine that young Messi and Iniesta had their default motivation at 100%.
With a good coach, that motivation will stay at 100%, but with a poor coach, it will drop to lets say 70-80%.
Messi during Tata had an original motivation drained at 50% (due to 3 cls won already).
A good coach can raise it slightly to lets say 70%, but still, it can never be at 100% like with a 20 years old Messi with zero trophies won.
Let's say that a current Messi's motivation is at 30%. With a good coach, it can go up to 50% for some shorter time, but in general, it can never be at 70% or 100% anymore.
So, about a motivation, you have a default natural part which decreases with age and titles won, and a part which can be increased by a coach, current team's situation, personal issues/happiness etc.
So, a core of our team had a motivation lets say at 90-100% in 2009 and 2011.
By 2015 it dropped to lets say 50%, and by 2017 it drained even further.
So, we could discuss whether Lucho is guilty about that smaller part of motivation.
But imo, in general, a core of our team is drained the same as Galacticos in early 00s and nothing in the world can improve their motivation long term.
Again, I am willing to bet that our current older players will play exactly the same under a new coach, or at best, only with a tiny improvement (this is where tactics and a motivation from a new coach kicks in).
Imo, the same as with young la masia players, where fans are looking only at technical skills and talent and where people are neglecting mental skills like Iq, bravery, professionalism and similar, the same is here with older players.
People mostly see Messi's and Neymar's technical skills and they don't think that much about ageing, psychology, natural draining of motivation in 99% od humans etc.
While 30% can be raised by s coach and an environment.
The same as ageing.
You can influence and slow down your ageing if you werent injured, if you train well and live healthy.
So, some will be finished aged 30 due to their default nature, injuries and unhealthy life, while some will be good aged 35 again due to their original natural Dna, healthy life and no injuries.
But still, once you are aged 35 or 38, nothing can help you. A coach, healthy life, zero injuries.
You are done because your body can't run anymore.
Imo, the same is with a motivation. Lucho and an environment can influence a motivation to some extent. But when your motivational batteries are drained, you are done.
Again, remember Ronaldinho. When he lost motivation, no coach in the world could have helped him.
So, imo, imagine that young Messi and Iniesta had their default motivation at 100%.
With a good coach, that motivation will stay at 100%, but with a poor coach, it will drop to lets say 70-80%.
Messi during Tata had an original motivation drained at 50% (due to 3 cls won already).
A good coach can raise it slightly to lets say 70%, but still, it can never be at 100% like with a 20 years old Messi with zero trophies won.
Let's say that a current Messi's motivation is at 30%. With a good coach, it can go up to 50% for some shorter time, but in general, it can never be at 70% or 100% anymore.
So, about a motivation, you have a default natural part which decreases with age and titles won, and a part which can be increased by a coach, current team's situation, personal issues/happiness etc.
So, a core of our team had a motivation lets say at 90-100% in 2009 and 2011.
By 2015 it dropped to lets say 50%, and by 2017 it drained even further.
So, we could discuss whether Lucho is guilty about that smaller part of motivation.
But imo, in general, a core of our team is drained the same as Galacticos in early 00s and nothing in the world can improve their motivation long term.
Again, I am willing to bet that our current older players will play exactly the same under a new coach, or at best, only with a tiny improvement (this is where tactics and a motivation from a new coach kicks in).
Imo, the same as with young la masia players, where fans are looking only at technical skills and talent and where people are neglecting mental skills like Iq, bravery, professionalism and similar, the same is here with older players.
People mostly see Messi's and Neymar's technical skills and they don't think that much about ageing, psychology, natural draining of motivation in 99% od humans etc.
Last edited:
serghei
Senior Member
Well, a lot of time when people say certain players are past their peak, they also speak about motivation being lower in the present than it was at a certain point in the past. So, of course players won't give as much as they did in their peak years. But, since you like percentages, [MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], it's normal for Juventus players to be more motivated, but it is not normal for the difference to be as big as it was. Basically, along with poor tactics and squad management, low motivation hasn't really allowed us to compete in the most important part of this season.
Lack of will is the no1 enemy in the mentality of a sportsman. And it is the manager's role to make sure that motivation is still at optimal levels to compete, even if it may not be your greatest asset. About 1 year of great football in 3 seasons, basically the whole 2015, where we won the treble comming from behind Madrid in La Liga, and also built a considerable lead in La Liga in the next season, which eventually allowed us to win the double in 15-16.
Lucky for us, that great 2015 was enough to win quite a few important titles under Lucho, which makes his tenure a success, in spite of quite large periods of pretty osbscure ideas and tangled football.
Lack of will is the no1 enemy in the mentality of a sportsman. And it is the manager's role to make sure that motivation is still at optimal levels to compete, even if it may not be your greatest asset. About 1 year of great football in 3 seasons, basically the whole 2015, where we won the treble comming from behind Madrid in La Liga, and also built a considerable lead in La Liga in the next season, which eventually allowed us to win the double in 15-16.
Lucky for us, that great 2015 was enough to win quite a few important titles under Lucho, which makes his tenure a success, in spite of quite large periods of pretty osbscure ideas and tangled football.
Last edited:
Barcelona Fan
New member
With the same players we won't play much better football, doesn't matter who is coach. Iniesta is way past his prime, Rakitic is a workhorse whose only purpose in 14/15 was covering Messi's and Dani's backs on the right side, we have no rightback at all, Messi is great but not as great as he used to be a few years ago and our bench sucks.
If we made a combined XI out of Real Madrid and Barca, it would realistically look like this:
Navas; Carvajal, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo; Busquets, Kroos, Modric; Ronaldo, Suarez, Messi.
Argue "Pepe vs. Pique" if you want but the point is this: It wouldn't be outlandish to claim that almost Madrid's entire back 6 is superior. Red card or not, over 210 minutes Bayern couldn't create much except an own goal, corner kick goal and penalty. Madrid are extremely stable at the back and through the middle.
This team needs Verratti, Pogba, Thiago level signings (preferably 2 of them). Anything else will be no upgrade, just okay-ish player. So since those 3 high-profile players are ungetable from PSG, ManU and Bayern, I predict we will continue to stagnate/decline with Arda and Gomes level signings.
If we made a combined XI out of Real Madrid and Barca, it would realistically look like this:
Navas; Carvajal, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo; Busquets, Kroos, Modric; Ronaldo, Suarez, Messi.
Argue "Pepe vs. Pique" if you want but the point is this: It wouldn't be outlandish to claim that almost Madrid's entire back 6 is superior. Red card or not, over 210 minutes Bayern couldn't create much except an own goal, corner kick goal and penalty. Madrid are extremely stable at the back and through the middle.
This team needs Verratti, Pogba, Thiago level signings (preferably 2 of them). Anything else will be no upgrade, just okay-ish player. So since those 3 high-profile players are ungetable from PSG, ManU and Bayern, I predict we will continue to stagnate/decline with Arda and Gomes level signings.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Lucho wasn't his best this year,but as you pointed out there is also players age.
We started this season with basically last team line up + Roberto & MATS
this meant we are playing with only 4 starters who were younger than 28. one of them is the GK who doesn't run so age isn't a big factor,other performed in high level at the start of the season then went full shit in Roberto,3rd is Alba who gets injured a lot and 4th was Neymar.
We signed the wrong players to improve the team no doubt,but after start of the season with the players he has? we had 2 out of form,out of effort midfielders, Messi who walks more than ever in the pitch to save his effort,and no RB. We lost some quality actually when Bravo and Alves left (MATS took a step back most of the year himself and Bravo was better GK for us most of the time) and while letting them go wasn't the wrong decision in itself
Yeah,better tactics could have improved our season,but probably we would have won same number of trophies when it is all said and done,RM has superior squad,look at transfer thread and most ppl agree with that,Juve probably has strong team atm too. people will shit about the players and the quality in the team but when talk about coach they will speak about how he wasted the squad.
The team needed intervention last summer,everyone including the board and Lucho knew it and they reacted for that. Simple as it is it was the wrong reaction. They took gambles and it backfired.
We are paying for what happened in June-Augest more than anything
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
@khaled_a_d
Not just last July and August, but also other years where we signed the wrong players, didn't sign the obvious ones we could have, and more.
Zubi is a Barca legend, but a total failure at his job.
Gotta be one special kind of incompetent when you sign Vermaelen when your medical team advices against it.
Not just last July and August, but also other years where we signed the wrong players, didn't sign the obvious ones we could have, and more.
Zubi is a Barca legend, but a total failure at his job.
Gotta be one special kind of incompetent when you sign Vermaelen when your medical team advices against it.
Home of Barca Fans
