Luis Enrique

[serghei]

Lucho wasn't his best this year,but as you pointed out there is also players age.
We started this season with basically last team line up + Roberto & MATS
this meant we are playing with only 4 starters who were younger than 28. one of them is the GK who doesn't run so age isn't a big factor,other performed in high level at the start of the season then went full shit in Roberto,3rd is Alba who gets injured a lot and 4th was Neymar.
We signed the wrong players to improve the team no doubt,but after start of the season with the players he has? we had 2 out of form,out of effort midfielders, Messi who walks more than ever in the pitch to save his effort,and no RB. We lost some quality actually when Bravo and Alves left (MATS took a step back most of the year himself and Bravo was better GK for us most of the time) and while letting them go wasn't the wrong decision in itself

Yeah,better tactics could have improved our season,but probably we would have won same number of trophies when it is all said and done,RM has superior squad,look at transfer thread and most ppl agree with that,Juve probably has strong team atm too. people will shit about the players and the quality in the team but when talk about coach they will speak about how he wasted the squad.
The team needed intervention last summer,everyone including the board and Lucho knew it and they reacted for that. Simple as it is it was the wrong reaction. They took gambles and it backfired.
We are paying for what happened in June-Augest more than anything

Those are issues. However, Juventus' average age in the squad is 28.2. Barca's is 27.6. Juventus has an older, and a weaker squad overall, with better players only in 2-3 positions. What they were were more motivated, and better prepared. Those are on Lucho mostly for me. Two inferior teams beat us 4-0 and 3-0 in 2 consecutive away CL games. I defended Lucho as well plenty of times, but this season he has made many many mistakes. And the state of the squad, while with problems is still good enough to challenge for CL in a much more convincing manner.

 

[SeloBarca]

We'll see in 3-4 Months whether it was only on Lucho.
We will have a new coach, and majority of these players will stay.
If we'll still suck (which imo, we will, until we change both a coach, players and evolve an outdated system), then we'll know that it was not only about Lucho, but also about the other things like players, our system, motivation, age etc.

This team is on a decline in a CL for the last 6 years (except in a magical 2015').

Agree. Pep said he had an extremly hard time motivating the team when he left.
But the board decided to try and ride on the same team year after year, and now we see the result.
We should have started doing proper rebuilding after Pep left, it took us until this year to get a proper CB which we have wanted for the last 5 years.
When Alves left we stood there with our pants down.
The midfield still rests on 33 year old Iniestas shoulders.
2015 we won becouse of MSN tbh, we didnt really play well as a team.

 

[BBZ8800]

Those are issues. However, Juventus' average age in the squad is 28.2. Barca's is 27.6. Juventus has an older, and a weaker squad overall, with better players only in 2-3 positions. What they were were more motivated, and better prepared. Those are on Lucho mostly for me. Two inferior teams beat us 4-0 and 3-0 in 2 consecutive away CL games. I defended Lucho as well plenty of times, but this season he has made many many mistakes. And the state of the squad, while with problems is still good enough to challenge for CL in a much more convincing manner.

Don't look only at the age.
Look at a number of Cl's won.

Mats 1
Roberto 1
Pique 3
Umtiti 0
Alba 1
Busi 3
Iniesta 4
Raki 1
Messi 4
Ney 1
Suarez 1

Look at Juve.
Only Alves and Mandzukic have titles if I counted correctly.
So, Barca's starting 11: 20 Cl titles
Juve: 4 Cl titles

Juve, players without Cl titles: 9
Barca: 1, Umtiti

There you go, about where has our motivation gone...

 

[serghei]

Don't look only at the age.
Look at a number of Cl's won.

Mats 1
Roberto 1
Pique 3
Umtiti 0
Alba 1
Busi 3
Iniesta 4
Raki 1
Messi 4
Ney 1
Suarez 1

Look at Juve.
Only Alves and Mandzukic have titles if I counted correctly.
So, Barca's starting 11: 20 Cl titles
Juve: 4 Cl titles

Juve, players without Cl titles: 9
Barca: 1, Umtiti

There you go, about where has our motivation gone...

Madrid has pretty good numbers of CLs won.

Navas 1
Marcelo 2
Ramos 2
Pepe 2
Carvajal 2
Modric 2
Casemiro 1
Kroos 2
C. Ronaldo 3
Benzema 2
Bale 2

So, Madrid's starting 11 has 21 CL titles won. Why are they still motivated then, while we are not?

It's more complicated than that BBZ.

 

[DonAK]

Motivation is the easiest cop-out.

The issues are tactical and personnel.

 

[serghei]

Motivation is the easiest cop-out.

The issues are tactical and personnel.

Could be. You're also more motivated when everything else, tactics, form etc. falls into place. But I do think we got lazy this season.

 

[DonAK]

Could be. You're also more motivated when everything else, tactics, form etc. falls into place. But I do think we got lazy this season.

I think the players are doing their best, but it's simply not working out.

Other teams are beating us tactically. Our only way of playing is passing the ball to mostly Messi and then Neymar and Suarez and expect them to create miracles.

Other teams have found ways to counter that. We fall into their trap every game, where they force us to overcommit to create anything, and then they destroy us on counters with all the space left behind.

I'm not saying players might not struggle with motivation, but we've seen players fight hard this season, but still leave empty-handed.

 

[serghei]

I think the players are doing their best, but it's simply not working out.

Other teams are beating us tactically. Our only way of playing is passing the ball to mostly Messi and then Neymar and Suarez and expect them to create miracles.

Other teams have found ways to counter that. We fall into their trap every game, where they force us to overcommit to create anything, and then they destroy us on counters with all the space left behind.

True, but we are also losing individual duels that in the past we used to win. The effort is not the same, and the desire to win is not at the previous levels. I also think tactically we were just bad, especially in the last month or so. But you can't discount the motivation part as well.

I feel that the personnel problem is overstated and blown out of proportion by the poor tactics. The team is really not as bad as it's made out to be. Needs improvement, sure, but we are a top 4 team in the world in terms of available players.

 

[BBZ8800]

Madrid has pretty good numbers of CLs won.

Navas 1
Marcelo 2
Ramos 2
Pepe 2
Carvajal 2
Modric 2
Casemiro 1
Kroos 2
C. Ronaldo 3
Benzema 2
Bale 2

So, Madrid's starting 11 has 21 CL titles won. Why are they still motivated then, while we are not?

It's more complicated than that BBZ.

Add La ligas+Cls for Real.

You can't find a team in the world with more trophies in the starting 11, which is understandable due to our glory days.

But one day, those titles become a burden and we have to pay the price.

You guys act as if you have never seen a fall of a dynasty which dominated for 5-10 years when a board failed to rehaul a team from this or that reason.

Galacticos after 2002
Milan after 2007
Man utd after 2010
Barca in upcoming years

Each of those teams dominated Europe and domestic leagues for years and had a core which played together for 10-15 years.
In the end, all of these teams didn't want to replace their old core players due to a past success and after that they needed several years to rise back.

Anyway, this is starting to be silly: some of us say that players are guilty, others say that it is all because of Lucho.
Once again, we will have a preseason already in July and we will see then whether a core of our team can still produce magic.

I think that longterm they can't.

But either way, we will find an answer in a few months.

 

[Mitchell1978]

When Alves left we stood there with our pants down.

Wasn't it Enrique who said we didn't need a new rb? If so, one of his biggest mistakes

 

[khaled_a_d]

Those are issues. However, Juventus' average age in the squad is 28.2. Barca's is 27.6. Juventus has an older, and a weaker squad overall, with better players only in 2-3 positions. What they were were more motivated, and better prepared. Those are on Lucho mostly for me. Two inferior teams beat us 4-0 and 3-0 in 2 consecutive away CL games. I defended Lucho as well plenty of times, but this season he has made many many mistakes. And the state of the squad, while with problems is still good enough to challenge for CL in a much more convincing manner.

Juve has more complete squad than us,and are you sure it is average age of starters? And even so it will be skewed due to difference in age of GKs alone I think
Juve seem on mission tbh,much more stronger,complete and motivated that year. Very few rubbish players out there. And playing in way easier league for them helps. They are far more refreshed than us,you can see the amount of chances we had and wasted in 1st game alone to realize that.
Again,I am not saying he is doing all right things,it is his worst year for sure. But even with different coach I doubt we would have achieved something different. Less humiliation or difference in points? yeah. different amount of trophies? can't see it

 

[khaled_a_d]

@khaled_a_d

Not just last July and August, but also other years where we signed the wrong players, didn't sign the obvious ones we could have, and more.

Zubi is a Barca legend, but a total failure at his job.

Gotta be one special kind of incompetent when you sign Vermaelen when your medical team advices against it.

Football is an fastly changing game,we had the strongest squad in Europe in 14/15 tbf. I can't blame him for what happened 3 years ago in the results of the team now. I don't like Zubi and I am still skeptical about judging Roberto
That said,we had the chance to build on special squad we had in 2015 and more important 2016 after removal of ban.
Could Zubi have signed a younger CB that would have lasted more? could he have done better? Yeah. There is always better. But he isn't the one to blame

 

[FlaFCB]

Football is an fastly changing game,we had the strongest squad in Europe in 14/15 tbf. I can't blame him for what happened 3 years ago in the results of the team now. I don't like Zubi and I am still skeptical about judging Roberto
That said,we had the chance to build on special squad we had in 2015 and more important 2016 after removal of ban.
Could Zubi have signed a younger CB that would have lasted more? could he have done better? Yeah. There is always better. But he isn't the one to blame

Zubi has his fair share of monumental mistakes. Mishandled Thiago, passed on asensio to sign douglas, signed song and vermaelen. Passed on marquinhos and others I don't recall right now. Verm is coming back in the summer too. Another problem to solve.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Zubi has his fair share of monumental mistakes. Mishandled Thiago, passed on asensio to sign douglas, signed song and vermaelen. Passed on marquinhos and others I don't recall right now. Verm is coming back in the summer too. Another problem to solve.

I am not denying any of this obviously,what I am saying we were still able to reach a point of having the best football team in the world and failed to build on that. His mistakes we could have still extended our run with better summers in past 2 years.I have been always critical to Zubi and I am not changing my stance on him.

 

[serghei]

Juve has more complete squad than us,and are you sure it is average age of starters? And even so it will be skewed due to difference in age of GKs alone I think

Nope. Even if we discount Buffon, their only players who are under 29 years old are Pjanic, Alex Sandro, and Dybala. The only young player they have (let's say <26) in the first eleven is Dybala. They have an older first 11 than us, so age is not really a factor for why we failed miserably against Juventus.

It's tactics, motivation, and failed transfers in the summer for me, in this order. All three, especially the first two, are issues which ultimately are down to the manager in charge (along with the sporting director for the 3rd one).

Juve seem on mission tbh,much more stronger,complete and motivated that year. Very few rubbish players out there. And playing in way easier league for them helps. They are far more refreshed than us,you can see the amount of chances we had and wasted in 1st game alone to realize that.

They are more motivated, I agree. I don't agree the manager has no role in keeping his squad motivated. I also don't agree that Juventus have suddenly better players than us, or a more complete squad than us. Only Alves, Buffon, Bonucci and Pjanic would play in our first 11. I think their management team, especially the manager, is getting more out of a worse squad than ours. They are better prepared and know what to do, as opposed to us, who have problems of concentration, will to win, or don't have any clear tactics about what to do in order to surpass any team who presses us in our own half or who blocks our main threats on the ball (Neymar and Messi).

Again,I am not saying he is doing all right things,it is his worst year for sure. But even with different coach I doubt we would have achieved something different. Less humiliation or difference in points? yeah. different amount of trophies? can't see it

I don't think we would've done much better under any different manager, but under a better manager we would have had bigger chances at both La Liga or CL. Lucho made massive mistakes in both competitions this season, and if he deserves credit for what he did in his first season, then he also deserves most of the blame for the clear tactical and player selection failings for this season.

You can't really say that a team who won 5/6 possible important titles in the previous two seasons, suddenly doesn't have quality players anymore. That is a major stretch.