soul24rage
Senior Member
I highly highly recommend that you do revisit the match to realize how wrong you are
Luis Enrique
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
soul24rage
Senior Member
Go back to the 13/14 season and come back again.
I'd rather see his offensive numbers go down 20-25% but run more without the ball.
We'd make up for that 25%. For example, your pressing would be better, which means you would catch the opponent more often on the transitions from attack to defense - and attacks after interceptions in the other half are always very dangerous, besides your possession would increase, because you would get the ball back to yourself faster and more often.
For example, we don't have Leo at the moment, do we score less than with him? In the 2014-15 season we scored 110 goals in La Liga with Leo, Suarez and Neymar. Now we have the same dynamic - half the season is over and we have 52 goals.
What am I gonna see? An overweight Leo with a second chin?
That's not a joke, by the way. He really is overweight and was bad that season. He was already on a diet in 2014.
soul24rage
Senior Member
"Barcelona fans always exalted him"
Easy to say but Messi just isn't that kind of player. You can't just change flick a switch and swap 20 goals for more pressing.
The player you are talking about doesn't exist in history does it. Find a player who could replace Messi and win more than 46 titles and dominate over such period.
I don't care about Messi's personal achievements. I'm a Barcelona fan, not a Messi fan. Therefore, I care about the club first and foremost. I don't want a player in the team who doesn't work at all without the ball, who doesn't follow the principles of positional football and as a result the quality of Barcelona's positional attacks, the quality of defense and the quality of pressing suffers, even if he scores so many goals and assists.
Give me a team of 11 players who defend together and attack together. That team will score more than with Messi, that team will defend better and press better.
What kind of dominance are we talking about? We suffered humiliation in Europe from 2015 to 2021 goals with Leo.
Yes, I was talking about it. And I'm not denying it.
But our performances in Europe have also been terrible in terms of quality of play.
Especially after the arrival of Valverde, who had to abandon the 4-3-3 in classic form, abandon the pressing and favor a low block with a 4-4-2.
Yes, I was talking about it. And I'm not denying it.
But our performances in Europe have also been terrible in terms of quality of play.
Especially after the arrival of Valverde, who had to abandon the 4-3-3 in classic form, abandon the pressing and favor a low block with a 4-4-2.
I didn't like Barcellona of that period at all - in defense it was a low block with 4-4-2, and in fact with 4-4-0 since Leo and Suarez were not defending, refusal of aggressive pressing.
And in attack it looked like this - Messi comes to the midfield line, because he did not care about the principles of positional football, he always wanted the ball, took the ball from his midfielders and started the attack. And so in almost every attack. The game was called let's give the ball to Leo, because if you do not give him the ball, saying that he violates the principles of positional footballwith his excessive free movement, then tomorrow at training he will come with a spoon in his mouth.
Don Juan Laporta Estruch
Well-known member
On the one hand you claim football is about entertainment rather than results.
On the other you exclude all the entertaining players because they don't press enough.
The most entertaining players in history are the mavericks. The number 10s. They never in the history of football wasted their energy pressing. For if they did, they would not have the energy to win the game by a spin of their wand.
You keep saying Messi upset the system, but he was the system. And he proved with Argentina, that if you give him the supporting cast and a good manager, he will bring home the bacon.
We failed him, not the other way around.
On the other you exclude all the entertaining players because they don't press enough.
The most entertaining players in history are the mavericks. The number 10s. They never in the history of football wasted their energy pressing. For if they did, they would not have the energy to win the game by a spin of their wand.
You keep saying Messi upset the system, but he was the system. And he proved with Argentina, that if you give him the supporting cast and a good manager, he will bring home the bacon.
We failed him, not the other way around.
Here Henry talks in simple terms about some of the principles of positional football - juego de posicion - the model of play taught to players at La Masia.
Listen to the end. There Henri tells the story of how Pep replaced him after he scored a goal.
Over time (especially during the period when Valverde was coach) Leo started to violate these principles of positional footballin a big way, as he always wanted the ball, he would constantly come into the midfield, dropping too deep, taking the ball from them and starting attacks.
Some idiots said he was doing this because our midfield was incapable of moving the ball forward. The fans said all sorts of stupid things to justify Messi.
Listen to the end. There Henri tells the story of how Pep replaced him after he scored a goal.
Over time (especially during the period when Valverde was coach) Leo started to violate these principles of positional footballin a big way, as he always wanted the ball, he would constantly come into the midfield, dropping too deep, taking the ball from them and starting attacks.
Some idiots said he was doing this because our midfield was incapable of moving the ball forward. The fans said all sorts of stupid things to justify Messi.
When I talk about entertainment, I always note that it's about the team's play. Team play, not Leo Messi.
I have already described to you our game with late Leo Messi - we go into a low block 4-4-0, wait for the opponent's attack to finish, start attacking, Messi comes for the ball to the center of the field, takes the ball from his midfielders and start attacking.
Maybe for Leo Messi's personal fans seeing this is great entertainment, but definitely not for me.
Messi's achievements is mostly Barca, so we can take credit as a club for his record without problems.
I'm asking you, name one player who in his prime would improve prime Barca instead of Messi?
I get your point with having a team full of players working for each, but Messi is an anomaly. Sacrificing defensive work for extreme offensive output (not only in terms of numbers) is something you cannot do with any other player except the other 2 goats.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Messi was more than good enough to be the best player in world while barely pressing.. the issue was when paired that with Suarez barely pressing also.
Some of those European games from the team as a whole and Messi/Suarez standing up the pitch waiting for ball were some of worst team set ups ever seen at Barca and ultimately it contributed to costing the team too often in Europe. It got to point it looked like Messi and Suarez would give up and sulk at times as if they were being let down.. when they played a part.
La Liga was a low enough level could scud teams week in week out.
Some of those European games from the team as a whole and Messi/Suarez standing up the pitch waiting for ball were some of worst team set ups ever seen at Barca and ultimately it contributed to costing the team too often in Europe. It got to point it looked like Messi and Suarez would give up and sulk at times as if they were being let down.. when they played a part.
La Liga was a low enough level could scud teams week in week out.
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