Marco Verratti

serghei

Senior Member
Yeah. Could and should have had Kroos back in 2014.

Totally. Really bad call that one.

Imagine Kroos - Busquets - Thiago. And MSN up front. How much damage would that make... We shot ourselves in the foot regarding the midfield, because we did jack shit to prepare the transition from Xavi, Busi, Iniesta.
 
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Morten

Senior Member
Modric is great, but he had not and will never reach the level of prime Inesta. I know you didn't say or even imply that, but I hear some Madrid fans who think Modric is at that level, which he isn't.

I didnt say he was prime Iniesta, but he is the closest thing i have seen since.
To make an analogy, Kroos is Xavi, Modric is Iniesta(not quite the same level, but you get the point). I have always rated Iniesta higher than Xavi, so i rate Modric a bit higher than Kroos too.
Kroos is the safe, boring player. Modric is more spectacular and extrordinary, when he is at his top.
That doesnt mean i dont value Kroos, i think he has been a great addition to the mf.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Totally. Really bad call that one.

Imagine Kroos - Busquets - Thiago. And MSN up front. How much damage would that make...

Even if we lost Thiago, we could have signed Isco for 5m more than we got for the former and been totally fine. I think he would have preferred us too, being a Barca fan and getting the opportunity to play and learn from Xavi and Iniesta. Would have grown more as a player too IMO.

This is what vision and replacing players properly mean.

I won't blame Cesc, but his signing really messed us up. We tried to find something in a player that wasn't meant to be. Hope we don't make the same mistake again.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Even if we lost Thiago, we could have signed Isco for 5m more than we got for the former and been totally fine. I think he would have preferred us too, being a Barca fan and getting the opportunity to play and learn from Xavi and Iniesta.

This is what vision and replacing players properly mean.

Let's see this Alena kid. Maybe we get a second chance to do it right and find ourselves a technical midfielder who can pass and not piss himself when under big pressure. One we can keep and don't strenghten our rivals with if possible...
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Let's see this Alena kid. Maybe we get a second chance to do it right and find ourselves a technical midfielder who can pass and not piss himself when under big pressure. One we can keep and don't strenghten our rivals with if possible...

Hopefully Valverde gives him a fair chance and he takes it.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Hopefully Valverde gives him a fair chance and he takes it.

Yep. There are players for him to work with in combinations on his side in Messi and the new signing Semedo, as he also seems to be a good passer. Need to bring back those triangles fast.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
No one is saying that Kroos is a scrub, you know @Yannik

Eh other guy basically said he thinks Kroos is just a "top 5 midfielder". That's what my comment is referring to.

Sergio Busquets.

I agree that Busquets is definitely "proven" in that regard, but I wouldn't really say that he is better than Kroos anymore. Barca midfield isn't looking that stable anymore since Xavi (and Iniesta) aren't in it.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Eh other guy basically said he thinks Kroos is just a "top 5 midfielder". That's what my comment is referring to.



I agree that Busquets is definitely "proven" in that regard, but I wouldn't really say that he is better than Kroos anymore. Barca midfield isn't looking that stable anymore since Xavi (and Iniesta) aren't in it anymore.

Barca's broken midfield with Busquets still manages to largely outperform both Modric and Kroos head-to-head in Clasicos.

It's not stable and Busquets have a lot to do by himself and often left for dead, although his form last season was shaky too.

But when a guy outperforms those two in tandem when they meet each other, then that's the greatest testament of his quality and superiority.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
Barca's broken midfield with Busquets still manages to outperform both Modric and Kroos head-to-head in Clasicos.

has he?
Nevertheless the Clasico are 2 games, and a season has like 40-50 and we should put more into context than direct head-to-head.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
has he?
Nevertheless the Clasico are 2 games, and a season has like 40-50 and we should put more into context than direct head-to-head.

He has if you've watched the Clasicos since 2014.

Obviously, but as you said, Barca's midfield is unstable. Madrid's is the best in the World, yet they mostly still don't perform better against Busquets and Iniesta.

Modric and Kroos should do much better, which they most of the time have not.

Madrid have a very stable and great FB duo too.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
I believe that when a player that has the ability to be something, but isn't yet, he should not be treated as if he is. Suarez was smart when he moved to Barca. It was a maximization of his potential, which was greater than Liverpool and was limited by that team (with all due respect to Liverpool fans here).

So, yes, he wasn't exactly world class at Liverpool. Even the term, 'world class' defines something which is supposed to be a reference in the world. Suarez' European record before Barca is unimpressive.

I'd call him a player of world class ability, but not a world class player if we're being exact.

What is ability to do something? I mean football is a team sport. You are basically making the same argument that is used against Messi. "he can't win a WC".
I mean I can get it with Verratti since he is playing in France which isn't close to other top leagues and his performance in CL left a lot to be desired.But Suarez was already a top 3 striker in the world and he needed nothing to prove that time. He proved it in top 2 league and almost lead them to league title but he can't do it all by himself.

Also I won't take Verratti staying in PSG against him, he was 2nd division player when they purchased him, and to force his way out he had to stay underpaid for at least 3 years. No one is gonna make that sacrifice in a team spending zillions to win CL while living in Paris

PS: I think Kroos is overrated a bit,great player but his lack of defensive ability and he doesn't cover that much of ground either. Many RM fans I know get frustrated from him many times and I've yet to see any of them rate him above Modric.
 

Yannik

Senior Member
I did, but I didn't write down midfield numbers for any specific game. I do remember the last one though and there was definitely no Barca midfield dominance there, more of a Ter Stegen/Messi show. Nevertheless [MENTION=15376]DonAK[/MENTION], you can't compare players by the way they play each other. You could do that for a lot of players and yet get really weird results. Someimtes a player can be the antidote to something, but it doesn't mean that it'll work for everything now. Tactics also matter here, Madrid will go lesser through the center against sides such as Barca or Bayern than they normally do.
 
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DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION] I disagree with a lot of these:
First of all: Kroos was Germanys best player in the EC2016, and has been consistently THE best player in that team for years now. Neuers heroics were one game and also a few good saves vs France, Müllers performed mainly in the group stage, and Schweinsteigers WC wasn't better than Kroos apart from the final.
I also don't get how you think they didn't notice his abscence in 2013. He was pretty much the best player alongside Ribery before his injury. And last but not leats he was definitely a top 3 player last year for Real Madrid. He was their best midfielder that year considering Modric had an off year till the semis and Isco played far less games than the starters. Yes, Kroos played in great teams, but why use that against him as if it's his fault now that his team mates are? There are tons of star crowded teams out there, teams that are way better individually than Germany, but they don't work that well because they lack someone like Kroos who strings it all together.

I don't understand what makes you think Kroos can't run the midfield at PSG or Italy, when he already does that at Bayern/Germany/Madrid/Leverkusen where he has also been the main creative force for many times. He is more than proven in that regard, claiming anything else is delusional. Anything about his game is brilliant, he plays a solid 8/10 in 290 of 300 matches without trying to be the hero. He simply makes everyone else play better, so it's easy to get the impression that they ARE actually better. As much as I love Thiago, Kroos is 2nd on his position on this planet, only behind Modric.

I didn't talk about the Euro but it's my mistake because I was meaning to refer to 'major tournament successes' instead of 'major tournaments'. As for the WC I do think he and Neuer were Germany's two best players and that it'd be fair to say either one was better, I mentioned Schweini and Muller to show that Germany indeed had a number of great performers and are a balanced team. Neuer's heroics against Algeria are his highlights of the WC but he was also fairly good against France, Brazil, and Portugal throughout the tournament. Aside from that, I did say that Kroos in WC 2014 was a key player (top 3) for his winning side, maybe even the best.

During Bayern's 12/13 treble, Ribery was easily the best player and Schweini was noted for having a fantastic season (definitely moreso than Kroos) for being an absolute beast in both the Buli and CL as their midfield engine and was hailed as maybe the best midfielder in football overall that year. Aside from that, Muller had a very productive season in both Buli and CL and was probably their 3rd best performer (13 goals 11 assists in Buli, 8 goals and clutch in CL). Many also lauded Dante for his role in making Bayern a defensive juggernaut. Kroos did have a good season, but the most crucial part of the treble was secured after he was injured and they never lost a step without him and were arguably even better. Decimating Barca 7-0 then winning the CL final against a very strong Dortmund side and securing the DFB Pokal after that. I never said that Kroos had a poor season, but your point was that it is Kroos that makes his teams tick whereas Bayern's treble-winning side were all-powerful with or without him there, no drop in quality whatsoever. Overall he was not the player that produced the biggest impact in midfield nor top 3 in impact throughout the team.

If we look at RM's 2016 and 2017 CL titles, he is not a top 3 player for them in importance. Modric has a notably bigger impact in midfield and dominates games, while Ramos/Ronaldo were both consistently decisive in their team's victories. Marcelo as well always turns up in the CL and has a huge responsibility in their attacking play and wide threat. If we look at the 2017 KO stages, Modric was crucially decisive in the SF and Finals, Marcelo in the QF and Finals, and Ronaldo from the QF till the end. On average through the tournament they were always better than Kroos who's actual best games were against Napoli in the R16. There's simply no way you could say that Kroos was really a standout in their CL campaign this past season and he didn't shine or dominate the show at any point crucial stages nor was his average performance levels that consistently great in comparison to other key RM players. It wasn't the "Kroos show" in any of the crucial games where they had some key players rise to the occasion and send them to the next stage. Casemiro arguably stood out to the same level or more, though he was also a cheating/fouling cunt. Back up to the 2016 CL campaign, and you'll see Ramos putting in consistently strong displays in every KO game except the one loss to Wolfsburg (and he wasn't even that bad) as well as his goal scored in the final and scoring his pen in the shootout. Modric also put on a masterclass in the final and was consistently strong in the KO's while Ronaldo was their topscorer again. Kroos was literally subbed off in the Final around the 60th or 70th minute or so at the crucial stage when RM were fighting Atleti's pressure to keep their 1-0 lead. That title is less meaningful though as RM had the easiest path to the final ever and were the most unconvincing champions since Chelsea 2012 (and arguably moreso with the offside goal in the final).

I didn't say that Kroos can't run the midfield for PSG or Italy, just that he can't take those teams to any real greatness (CL/WC/EC titles) if you switch him with Verratti. Not that I'd expect him too, my point was about Verratti not being able to compete with Modric or Kroos in silverware because of the teams he plays for. You say that everything about his game is brilliant but I say that he lacks some of the footwork/dribbling on the ball to create space and new passing lanes that Modric/Thiago have. They are effective in distribution when playing deep AND can operate in higher/tighter spaces to generate attacks. There is no doubt that Modric is the true creative force in RM's midfield on another level to Kroos. You say he makes everyone else play better but IMO everyone else can and does perform to a fantastic level regardless of him even if he does make things easier for them. Can't take away their credit just because Kroos is great.
 

Barcaman

Administrator
Staff member
He's was naive little fuck to extend his contract each summer. It's such a shame really. He could have played with Messi in his zenith.
 

Arkk

New member
I'm not sure why but it does seem this is still on.. our board are embarassing its true but surely even they can't be stupid enough to continue chasing him if theres no hope? seeing rumours now of a cash + Rakitic offer. obviously he could come out tomorrow and sign a new contract but this isn't the foregone conclusion the pessimists believe.
 
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