ryuken
Senior Member
And we cant fix that with 1 year older Alves
Martin Montoya
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
And we cant fix that with 1 year older Alves
serghei
Senior Member
Of course we can. He's 31, not 37.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
I do understand your perspective but IMO there are a lot more factors to consider than the individual player.
First off, do we really need our goddamn RB to 'break down' teams if we can instead shift the role of dynamic attacker to the wing forward? Guys like Neymar or (theoretically after improvement) Deulofeu are ball carriers and do create space for themselves. Over the past 4 years we've only had one 'winger' that was a ball carrier, Iniesta in 12/13 (Messi was more of a central free role so Alves always dominated the flank). In that season, Iniesta got his highest assist total while linking up beautifully and being SUPPORTED by Alba. Alba wasn't the dominator of the flank or anything but his constant movements and linkups helped the play greatly, like Montoya can do on the right.
It isn't a conservative approach, we're not subtracting. We're just shifting the orientation of our attack. Instead of coming from a creative fullback way up the pitch, it's in the form of two wingers supported by energetic/technical fullbacks. Our total football approach is flexible enough for us to shift around emphasis and work with different types of players rather than strictly Villa/Pedro wingers and Alves RB. If Neymar/Deulo is up in a 1v1, having a FB bomb up on the overlap instantly increases the amount of dimension he has. If he's carrying the ball up the pitch, the overlap will free up space or markers for him and allow him to make a decision.
The thing that is improved is that we'd be balanced on both sides. We can shift our focus from flank to flank, freeing up space on the other. Both can move up and down at will and switch roles with ease. That's a lot more balanced than having one entire side to be unused while the other is overloaded. Besides, the key to parked buses is and always will be playing faster and with quicker transitions so that they can't really assemble it in the first place. Having Alves plopped way up the pitch never really solved our parked bus issue, but I'm betting that if we were to constantly switch between flanks through quick and intense passing play (facilitated by having two successful fullbacks on both sides) we could do it.
Having a free-Ferrari individual on RB is only necessary if we have no other ball carriers to hold the dynamic role. On the left we're gonna have Neymar, Iniesta, etc. On the right we'll have maybe Deulo, maybe Rafinha, and Messi drifting. That's a MASSIVE difference from who we had before in our prime days that allowed Alves to be a dominating dynamic force in attack (Pedro, Villa, Messi in free role mostly central, Eto'o as mobile #9, etc.). It's an evolution all over the pitch. More dynamic responsibility given to our wing forwards and they'll be hugely supported by their fullbacks.
KingMessi
SiempreBlaugrana
Semi-Neutral
Sir Alupp Heynrguson
^Yeah, that's really the point he's making 
Basically, here's how I imagine it working. Dani hasn't got the stamina to run up and down the field for 90 minutes any more; believe me, getting up as far as Dani goes and then sprinting all the way back gets you exhausted really quickly. So our coaches have decided that Dani should prioritize going forward and conserve his energy on the back end as opposed to staying back and not contributing in the attack. And for the most part, this has worked; we lost La Liga only in the last week, we got to R16 in CL and lost to (hopefully) the champions, we got to the Copa del Rey final and we won the Super Cup. However, he has been caught out a number of times, as would obviously happen in that situation, and Tata and Tito before him have decided that it's worth it.
That being said, I agree with DonAndres in that we don't need to find another insanely talented attacking full back to be successful, even a simple overlapping run is enough to drag away a marker, and if our front three's movement is a lot more creative and fluid then I think we can handle the downgrade just fine.
Basically, here's how I imagine it working. Dani hasn't got the stamina to run up and down the field for 90 minutes any more; believe me, getting up as far as Dani goes and then sprinting all the way back gets you exhausted really quickly. So our coaches have decided that Dani should prioritize going forward and conserve his energy on the back end as opposed to staying back and not contributing in the attack. And for the most part, this has worked; we lost La Liga only in the last week, we got to R16 in CL and lost to (hopefully) the champions, we got to the Copa del Rey final and we won the Super Cup. However, he has been caught out a number of times, as would obviously happen in that situation, and Tata and Tito before him have decided that it's worth it.
That being said, I agree with DonAndres in that we don't need to find another insanely talented attacking full back to be successful, even a simple overlapping run is enough to drag away a marker, and if our front three's movement is a lot more creative and fluid then I think we can handle the downgrade just fine.
jamrock
Senior Member
firstly no one is comparable to dani alves he is arguably the best FB in the last two decades of football all things consider (taking sevilla to the brink of winning la liga, UEfa cups + what he has done at barca).
but their is something to be said about balance, and montoya would give us that balance and allow alba to be more attacking that he is right now, its really that simple. with a defensive fullback, alba could be camped in the oppositions half the way alves is for us. will he be as good?. nope. but few if any well. unless we are going to play a winger there.
we need balance, we have lost it since abidal has left and since then we have been sub par.
the defensive FB allows the creative fullback to push forward and do his job.
montoya has shown that he can do this job for the Spanish under 21, for two tournaments. they kid has ability, and not only has he been only a stopped, but he has shown that he can bring something to the attack as well, all he needs his game time to work out the few glitches in his game.
having two attacking fullbacks will not help us in breaking down buses, it will only make us weaker
but their is something to be said about balance, and montoya would give us that balance and allow alba to be more attacking that he is right now, its really that simple. with a defensive fullback, alba could be camped in the oppositions half the way alves is for us. will he be as good?. nope. but few if any well. unless we are going to play a winger there.
we need balance, we have lost it since abidal has left and since then we have been sub par.
the defensive FB allows the creative fullback to push forward and do his job.
montoya has shown that he can do this job for the Spanish under 21, for two tournaments. they kid has ability, and not only has he been only a stopped, but he has shown that he can bring something to the attack as well, all he needs his game time to work out the few glitches in his game.
having two attacking fullbacks will not help us in breaking down buses, it will only make us weaker
Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
Dani was never the tracking back type, even back when he had the speed and stamina to do so. When Dani went up and joined the attack, Barcelona kept defensive integrity with a 3 man backline of Abidal, Pique and Puyol spread about to cover the middle and wings and Puyol would cover Alves back.
Then Alves was freed up to stay up high in attack, and if the ball was lost, he would press high first, track back second because his back was always covered.
He still plays this way but now Barcelona's defense is all discombobulated and there is not cover for him.
Barcelona either needs to return to the same system and have 1 defensive right back to create the 3 man backline in attack with Alba now the attacking fullback, or play with 2 fullbacks who neither of them stay up but bomb forward to overlap and quickly return to a defensive shape.
Then Alves was freed up to stay up high in attack, and if the ball was lost, he would press high first, track back second because his back was always covered.
He still plays this way but now Barcelona's defense is all discombobulated and there is not cover for him.
Barcelona either needs to return to the same system and have 1 defensive right back to create the 3 man backline in attack with Alba now the attacking fullback, or play with 2 fullbacks who neither of them stay up but bomb forward to overlap and quickly return to a defensive shape.
serghei
Senior Member
Sure, Neymar is a ball carrier and Deulofeu reminds me a little of Messi circa 07-09 -- but he has a lot to improve, especially to make sure he doesn't pass the ball wrong or (even worse) lose it, when the fullback does engage in the overlap. Sort of like Alves did in the Copa del Rey, exept he was the RB and there was nobody behind him in his flank to cover up in time or make a tactical foul.
This can be a way of playing, but it is a more mechanical, systemic approach. I'd like for Barcelona to keep as many options as possible. Alves/other RB can also do overlaps, but he can also think outside the box and surprise you with passes or combinations that players like Montoya can't even think of due to the fact that they have a more limited imagination and a more basic understading of attacking football in general. A return to the basic is welcomed in my oppinion, and I think many of the comments you made are very well formulated and thought out, but I just like players that could do something (improvise if you'd like) that's not rehearsed, or taught in tactical sessions before the game. I think what you say might give us extra safety in defence, but it would be a little like putting all your eggs in the same basket, whereas having that extra man that could come up with something when the system isn't working as it should could prove to be very wise. This is the same reason I would like us to keep Alexis. Tactical stuff can be practiced and developed by a perfectionist, ambitios and commanding coach (and he has showed signs of massive improvement in all areas). Individual skill and talent is always the missing ingredient for many players. When you have that in a player, it is a shame not to use it and make the team benefit from it.
Besides, we already have Montoya who has recently renewed his contract. If we sell Alves we might as well buy Cuadrado, a player with undeniable offesive appetite and imagination, and make them compete against each other. Why not try both and see where we go from there? What harm would that do? There are matches at home when we can afford to play a little, to experiment certain things. I wish we could instruct our players to mix it up more, try to confuse our opponents and take them out of their comfort zone. There's a reason every small team somehow seems to pull off the game of the season against us. We make their life much easier than we should.
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serghei
Senior Member
Way too radical. Dani Alves did track back a lot, but there were times where traking back was ineffective. Those times we had the warrior Puyol who came and took care of that gap on the right side. So, yes, IMO Dani's game has created us some problems in the back, but Puyol and Pique put out the fire in time. Having two top class CBs always helps in defence.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Cuadrado could come but I'd see him as no more than a stopgap for Alves if he were to leave and solid competition for the RB spot (we can't just hand a starting position to Montoya, he's not ready yet). The thing about Montoya's/Alba's individual quality is that it isn't completely devoid. Alba is a great dribbler and when attacking has often made unpredictable movements inside the fullback where he went on to score (vs. Madrid, Italy, Milan, etc.). Montoya on the other side does have a great shot the more I think about it (crossbar vs. Madrid, goal vs Malaga, etc.), something that will become more of a tool when he gains confidence and personality as a player. They're no Alves, but they do provide elements that we could add to our attacking force.
The thing is that again, we do have a shift in our individual quality. Attackers we worked with are Pedro (a supporting player) and Villa (a goalscorer). Neither could dribble all that well and 'create space for themselves'. Neymar can, bringing in that individual wow factor with his skill and unpredictability. Deulofeu can if he improves (although I mentioned him just as an example, principle still applies with someone like Reus for example off the top of my head).
It'd be better to have multiple options, I agree. Our squad has been stale for too long now, and having multiple varieties of talented players at their best will allow us to implement a tactical system and find success with it.
Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
It wasn't about putting out fires, it was about the way the formation was set up. It was designed for Dani to be an attacking player and for that to happen, the defense was set up to cover him. It was by design, not because Puyol was covering for his deficiencies.
Dani stayed up to link-up and overlap, the defense shuffled and became a back 3, with Abidal covering the left wing, Pique staying in the middle as the sweeper, and Puyol moving to the right to cover Dani's back and cover the right wing. That was the defensive set-up for Barcelona. On a counter Busi would drop to CB and you'd have a back 4 again, without Alves.
Dani Alves' designed role was to help the attack, if the ball was lost in attack, he would press high first, track back second. This was the design.
Problem now is Alves continues to play like he used to, but the defensive scheme is no longer there for that to work. He's also lost physical ability, to compound the problem.
The team needs to either return to the same scheme and buy a player that would allow for that scheme to be played, or change a it so that fullbacks don't stay up to link up, but bomb forward to overlap and then return to a defensive shape.
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